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Old June 2, 2012, 09:01 PM   #1
E.J.W.
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CCW with handloaded ammo...

I've had a CCW for many years now and have always kept it loaded with factory/store bought ammo. In the interest of saving some $$ I thought I might hand load some self defense rounds to carry. Is there any cautions for carrying handloaded ammo?
Thanks
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Old June 2, 2012, 09:59 PM   #2
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Quote:
E.J.W.

CCW with handloaded ammo...
Is there any cautions for carrying handloaded ammo?
You should consider two areas.

One quality control. Your hand loaded ammo can be reliable if you are competent in how you hand load while using quality components and equipment.

Second, possible legal ramification.
Should you shoot someone, you may be arrested and charged with a crime. You may go to trial. The prosecutor may try to make an issue that you carried your hand loaded ammunition instead of what is commonly used by law enforcement. What you used was excessive and that you are a bad person who should go to jail (or something like that).
If you avoid the criminal charges and conviction; you may be sued by the person you shot or his/her estate and/or survivors in a civil action. The attorney there may also raise the issue of hand loaded ammunition . . .
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Old June 2, 2012, 10:04 PM   #3
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This is a topic that gets discussed regularly here. And I can't think of anything that can be said that hasn't already been said.

So before once again going down that very well trodden path, see this thread and the various links included in it: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=452627.
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Old June 2, 2012, 10:47 PM   #4
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Never, if something ever happen your at fault.

With a company you could file suit for faulty ammo. Say they made faulty ammo on day 1 and you had a SD on day 5 when you put the ammo in your gun. They release a statement on day 8 faulty ammo you had bought in x time frame.

IMO.
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Old June 3, 2012, 02:17 AM   #5
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Let's beat this dead horse once more. If your handloads are as accurate as factory, I'd say to carry them.
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Old June 3, 2012, 12:46 PM   #6
E.J.W.
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Thanks for the replies.
To whom it may concern....
I did read plenty of the past posts of which most are dated. My intention was to see if there was any more current info on the subject. My take on this now is the money I might save on carrying my reloads would be spent 100 times over by paying a lawyer to defend me if it ever came to that.
I will continue to carry factory ammo.
Sorry if I offended anyone by digging up a dead horse.
E.
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Old June 3, 2012, 12:53 PM   #7
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EJW, I don't think anyone was offended by the post. If there had been any gound-breaking developments on this issue, though, I'm sure that a thread would have been started, and I would certainly add such a thread to the archive.
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Old June 3, 2012, 01:30 PM   #8
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And I agree with Spats. I certainly wasn't offended.

The thing is, there's nothing new that I'm aware of, and there's nothing to be gained by going over old ground yet again.

As to saving money, how much could you really save. Save money by training and practicing with your handloads. You'll want to shoot a lot for training and practice, and you can load you practice ammunition to be roughly ballistically the same as your carry ammunition.
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Old June 3, 2012, 06:08 PM   #9
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If you are a competent reloader, it is quite easy to load ammo to similar specs as many factory SD type loads. In the interest of reducing the CHANCE of a liability case going against you for using "homemade super killer" ammo, use copycat ammo for practice and buy a box of factory loads for carry.
This is what I do even though I doubt that it is that much of a problem. I just don't have much patience with a bunch of lawyer types questioning my actions.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; June 3, 2012 at 06:15 PM. Reason: remove snark
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Old June 3, 2012, 06:33 PM   #10
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It is juror types and DA types that will have fun questioning your actions - as pointed out a zillion times as Frank has pointed out.

Zombie horses never die.
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Old June 3, 2012, 07:07 PM   #11
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Has there ever been a case where handloaded ammo caused a problem? It wouldn't be hard to prove the load is proper with a loading manual. A justifiable shot would be all that mattered unless Mas Ayoob said different.
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Old June 3, 2012, 07:15 PM   #12
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That depends on your view of the case which will be cited, and linked to a zillion other TFL posts, shortly.

I have certain guns that never see a factory load. I carry them around the farm, hunting, or occasionally when I run into town for few minutes. I've never fretted about it and I worry even less because of recent changes in MO's self defense statutes. Others will disagree and that's fine.
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Old June 3, 2012, 07:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie5
Has there ever been a case where handloaded ammo caused a problem?
Yes. Look for Daniel Bias in the threads linked in the thread which was linked by Frank Ettin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie5
It wouldn't be hard to prove the load is proper with a loading manual. A justifiable shot would be all that mattered unless Mas Ayoob said different.
Take a look in the archive of these threads. The problem with handloads is an evidentiary one, meaning that a SD shooter/defendant who used handloads may or may not get to talk about his manual or his recipe.
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Old June 3, 2012, 07:53 PM   #14
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Here's my experience and opinion re: handloads:

Rifle: You can develop handloads that are as reliable, and more accurate than factory ammo. A rifle can be fine tuned for best accuracy and performance with a variety of bullets and powders available.

Shotgun: You can hanload for target or hunting. Did it for years. Don't know when I last killed a bird with factory ammo, except for waterfowl that require steel shot. You can handload that, also, but I never set up for it.

Pistol: If you're a very good handloader, it MAY be possible to equal the reliability of factory ammo, but I don't know if it's possible to exceed it. Even if you have access to the bullets used in the best factory ammo. Yes, you may find a bullet that's more accurate, but is it the best for SD?

I'm an experienced handloader, and I don't carry handloads for SD. It's already been pointed out that many handloaders think more highly of the quality of their loads than the facts would support.

The legal points have been discussed.
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Old June 3, 2012, 11:13 PM   #15
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Dang, you got me googling, and I read a lot just now! I am a convert, after reading all the cases, to the extent I could access. This thread got me, too. Mas is one sharp cookie!


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Old June 4, 2012, 08:45 AM   #16
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Just for grins, this sunday - saw a handload blow up in the shooter's face - scaring the poopy out of him and us near by! Of course, your loads won't and factory ammo may blow up too!

May the zombie horse ride!
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Old June 4, 2012, 11:43 AM   #17
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Besides the legal issues, it is false economy. To hire an expert witness to come to court and explain to the jury why your custom handloads are acceptable in this instance, will cost at least a couple grand. One can buy a lot of factory self-defense ammo for $2,000.
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Old June 4, 2012, 11:51 AM   #18
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I would also submit that if saving money is really the issue, one would save more money by developing a handload that mimics one's chosen factory defensive round.
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Old June 4, 2012, 02:36 PM   #19
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie5
Has there ever been a case where handloaded ammo caused a problem?

Yes. Look for Daniel Bias in the threads linked in the thread which was linked by Frank Ettin.
I would like to rephrase this question.

Has there ever been a documented self defense shooting in which the shooter was convicted of a crime because they were using hand loaded ammo?
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Old June 4, 2012, 02:41 PM   #20
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Reloads

Who will your estate sue if the handloads you made didn't work?
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Old June 4, 2012, 03:02 PM   #21
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No nothing new. There has never been a single case where someone was convicted because they used their own ammunition for self-defense. Never, ever, not even one time. BTW, what brand of ammunition did Zimmerman use? Probably factory ammunition but who cares? As in all cases, a good shoot is a good shoot. But we know for sure that carrying a 10mm auto can help put you behind bars.
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Old June 4, 2012, 03:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquezj16
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie5
Has there ever been a case where handloaded ammo caused a problem? . . . .
I would like to rephrase this question.

Has there ever been a documented self defense shooting in which the shooter was convicted of a crime because they were using hand loaded ammo?
Though perhaps you did not mean for it to be, this is something of a red herring. There are problems in the way you've rephrased the question.

First: If a case is a "documented self-defense shooting," then the shooter has been able to carry his burden of proof on the issue of self-defense. Accordingly, he cannot have been convicted of a crime. In this case, it is unlikely that the State would have appealed, and it could be very difficult to locate such a case. OTOH, if the shooter was convicted of a crime, then he did not carry his burden of proof on SD, and, the case cannot be a documented self-defense shooting, unless an appellate court overturned the decision (of course).

Second: In every jurisdiction of which I am aware, the rules of evidence remain the same, whether the case is a criminal prosecution, a negligence case, or a breach of contract case. The problems inherent in using handloads are evidentiary in nature, so the fact that one particular case does not have an element of self-defense to it does not diminish its value as a predictor of possible future rulings.

Third: It overlooks the difficulties in finding self-defense cases which meet suitable criteria. By "suitable criteria," I mean: (1) an allegation of SD; (2) use of handloaded ammunition; and (3) a decision with some useful guidance written into it.

Of all of the cases that are ever resolved by a court, very, very few are reported to any sort of searchable database. If no charges are filed, most of us will never be able to locate a report. If the defendant prevails at trial, most of us will never be able to locate a report. If the case is ruled not to be SD, and the defendant is acquitted, we will only find the case if the defendant appeals, and if handloaded ammo is an issue.

So my answer to your question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marquezj16
Has there ever been a documented self defense shooting in which the shooter was convicted of a crime because they were using hand loaded ammo?
is no. As the question is written, there is no such case. That, however, is largely irrelevant.

A good shoot is only a good shoot after the police, the prosecutor, and possibly a judge and jury decide that it is.
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Old June 4, 2012, 03:24 PM   #23
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I guess it's time to add this one to the Archive.
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Old June 4, 2012, 03:28 PM   #24
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It's also time to shut this off. Nothing new is being brought up. Everything is covered in the material in the archives.
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