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Old March 26, 2012, 09:38 PM   #51
trex1310
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There isn't a chance in the hot place that I would render aid to a person I just shot.

When confronted with a situation, I will give that person every opportunity to stay alive. When force is the only option, I will lay fire on that guy until there is no sign of resistance. At that point, in my philosophy, the person I shot is just going to have to hope that I missed the vitals, and that he's luckier than I am.

I wasn't given a choice about whether or not to shoot him, and I'm not going to interfere with whatever fate has in store for him.

I'm going to back the heck away, avoid his probably infected blood and tissue samples, not put myself within spitting distance, take care of my family, and protect myself.
Amen. I agree with you 100%.
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Old March 26, 2012, 09:47 PM   #52
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Old April 6, 2012, 08:39 PM   #53
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TRW, thank you for your service to our country.

As for approaching a downed person, there are any number of things to keep in mind:
1. are they shamming, to draw you in close?
2. Where are you in relation to the person, cover, and his gun?
3. Can you approach from a safe direction?
4. Can you neutralize him (cuffs, rope, whatever)? He may be out now, but revive and be really upset with you.
5. How can you help him best - getting trained people there vs. your level of training and equipment to deal with the situation ?
6. Could you be destroying or moving evidence that could help you - or him?
(added) 7. How good are you at evaluating his condition? Is he dead, unconcious, or playing possum?

I have given this a lot of thought, as we live remote, and response time around here runs 45 min. at the best! On the other hand, I have some training in field treatment of GSW and keep advanced med supplies on the ranch and in my cars.

And I would never apologize for shooting someone - it was his actions that made me do it in the first place, and now I can expect to spend $50,000 even if I am innocent and can prove it. I would say nothing except that needed to assure my safety and help treat him if I chose to do so.

Edited to add:
8. On TV, crooks either resist totally or obey every command perfectly. In real life, they do anything but. Crooks train in prison to say "Stop hurting me!" while they try to kill you.
9. What do you do when the downed person does not speak any language you do?
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Old April 8, 2012, 10:52 AM   #54
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TRW: Come home safe, brother.

We render aid to our military enemies for two reasons.

First, there is some evidence that an enemy is less likely to continue to resist when he has the idea that we are "merciful." Throw down your rifle and we won't kill you. Probably. It's good policy to be nice to those we are killing, even if it's not always very successful.

Which leads to the second reason. It is not in our core nature to slay our own species, despite the pap voiced by those who repeat the old saw that only men and rats will kill their own kind. When the transitional psychotic experience of war ends, it is important for our warriors to return to civilization and their homes and families as human beings who are not ashamed of what they have done in the name of our country. Showing mercy to a military enemy -- when appropriate -- facilitates this transition. We can be warriors who must kill without being killers. Mostly. Hopefully.

In WWII Europe and North Africa, there were documented cases of medics of either side risking their lives to render aid to the enemy's wounded on the battlefield. Actions like this make an eventual transition to peace thinkable, which can invite the losing side in war to give up sooner. The Japanese on the other hand fought a war of no quarter in the Pacific, and received one in kind. There was a much wider racial and cultural gap between the Japanese and the Americans than between Americans and Germans or Italians. Thirty percent of the US Army fighting in Europe was of German extraction to some degree.

Afghanistan? My only Afghani friend told me -- long before 9/11-- that the reason he immigrated to America is that we can disagree about stuff here without somebody pulling a Kalashnikov. Afghanistan has always has been very violent culture. We can't change it, but we can -- and have -- stopped them from exporting religious murder to the rest of the world. For now anyway.

A sociopathic, home-invading felon lying on my floor bleeding out? It's good legal and psychological strategy to render aid, but only if safe to do so. He dealt the cards, and frankly doesn't have the moral stature of a battlefield enemy. I'll be sure to tell the cops that I want him arrested whether he bleeds to death or not.
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Old April 9, 2012, 08:50 AM   #55
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First, there is some evidence that an enemy is less likely to continue to resist when he has the idea that we are "merciful." Throw down your rifle and we won't kill you. Probably. It's good policy to be nice to those we are killing, even if it's not always very successful.
What evidence is that? "...be nice to those we are killing"? That sounds rather ridiculous.

Quote:
Which leads to the second reason. It is not in our core nature to slay our own species, despite the pap voiced by those who repeat the old saw that only men and rats will kill their own kind.
Providing aid isn't the same thing as not killing.

Not in our core nature? Interesting conclusion given that we have been doing it for thousands of years (indiginously documented, the earliest being 2700 BC between Sumer and Elam) and longer (documented via archaeological evidence).

As Grossman has pointed out, some have the aversion, but others do not.

Obviously, humans killing humans goes on all the time even in "peaceful" societies. It is hard to explain away something as not being in our nature when we do it so often and even on mass scales. It is certainly in the nature of society.
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Old April 18, 2012, 07:31 AM   #56
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As Grossman has pointed out, some have the aversion, but others do not.
Actually, Grossman's work was what I had in mind when I wrote that comment. In his book On Killing he relates an incident wherein he verbally disciplined one of his subordinates (IIRC he told the soldier he would shoot him himself) if that soldier thought he could kill a prisoner. He articulated that committing such acts stiffened the enemy's will to resist and made the task of defeating him more difficult.

Quote:
"...be nice to those we are killing"? That sounds rather ridiculous.
Once again I have to remind myself that when I attempt to use irony or sarcasm in a discussion it often fails to be appreciated as such.

The Marines taught me that it's easy to be hard but it's hard to be smart. We should be both as needed.
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Old April 19, 2012, 03:45 AM   #57
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Very interesting post.

I'm a physician too. Regarding treating the perp just shot in a SD scenario, I am in my home. What can I do? I have some 4x4s in my bathroom and some bacitracin ointment. But seriously; in this scenario the other person has several 9mm SD rounds in his chest. Am I going to needle his chest with the barrel of a ballpoint pen? Auscultate with my spare stethoscope? Start CPR? Call 911, retire to safety, and let the police and EMS do their thing.

As a civilian hypothetically involved in a shooting, this is a one off emotionally traumatic event. Would I even by mentally or emotionally capable of rendering aid? Compare this to a soldier in an army that has been at war for 10 years. Probably not the first person he's shot, not the last, nothing but work, work, work. Very different scenarios.
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Old April 19, 2012, 02:01 PM   #58
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TRW ty for serving! This is a very good read. And another thing to add is you can never tell where a bullet or pellet may ricochet striking someone else. Had a friend and her uncle died because he let his brother borrow a .22 and the brother was cleaning it and it went off. went through an entire house ricocheting off a frying pan and hit him dead center of the chest. he didnt die immediately and actually talked to his family for a few mins before death.
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Old April 19, 2012, 04:56 PM   #59
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Some years ago at a range in Texas, a pistol bullet hit a steel target support, bounced off another piece of steel overhead framing, penetrated the steel roof of the office and killed a teenager who was standing there with his father.
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Old April 20, 2012, 09:42 AM   #60
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As far as the rest... gotta check your local laws. I have a feeling this is a huge grey area in most places. I'm not so sure you'd be covered by Good Samaritan laws since you caused the injuries. In googling trying to find some answers I did find that Minnesota at least requires you to give "reasonable assistance," however you interpret that.

Quote:
A person who discharges a firearm and knows or should know that the discharge has caused bodily harm to another person must immediately investigate the extent of the injuries and render immediate reasonable assistance to the injured person. A person who violates this duty is subject to criminal penalties that vary according to the extent of the shooting victim’s injuries. A person who witnesses a shooting incident is subject to the same duty to investigate and render aid and is also subject to criminal penalties for failing to do so. Minn. Stat. § 609.662
IMO legally and morally you're probably better off helping if at all possible, even if it isn't required. If the DA decides to charge you, sitting there and watching while the BG bleeds out isn't going to help your case.
Yep MN is a different place, this is not legal advice, and I am not a lawyer, but would not calling an ambulance ( or requesting one on the 911 call) be considered "rendering aid" to a gunshot wound for most non medical professionals?

certainly going on record as requesting an ambulance ( would be sent in any case) is a positive thing to do in such a negative cultural environment ( e.g. media lynchings). I also happen to think it IS the right thing to do. And I presume that everyone here would at least do that.
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Old April 20, 2012, 10:44 AM   #61
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As a former Fisrt Responder (local Volly Fire Department), we were not allowed on scene until the Sheriff's Deputies had secured the scene. It was sometimes frustrating, as we would arrive 15-20 min. before the SO.
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Old April 26, 2012, 09:14 PM   #62
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Yep MN is a different place, this is not legal advice, and I am not a lawyer, but would not calling an ambulance ( or requesting one on the 911 call) be considered "rendering aid" to a gunshot wound for most non medical professionals?

certainly going on record as requesting an ambulance ( would be sent in any case) is a positive thing to do in such a negative cultural environment ( e.g. media lynchings). I also happen to think it IS the right thing to do. And I presume that everyone here would at least do that
You do not request an ambulance. You tell 911 that someone tried to kill you and you defended yourself. Your assailant was shot. You are really scared that there might be more BGs, please send the police! The 911 operator will send EMS and LEOs.
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Old April 27, 2012, 04:21 AM   #63
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Navy Docs were almost like "gods" in the Corps. A Marine would take a round to save the life of a Doc in a heartbeat knowing that this Doc being alive means that more of his Marine brothers will survive. You posted a wonder example and although very graphic and detailed, I think people need to see it in true black and white like the way you presented it. I happened to see the result of an insurgent who was hit by a .50cal SLAP round and it was right then and there I never questioned the validity of whether or not a sniper rifle bullet could cut a human being in half because I had now see the result and effect up close and in person. When thinking about the whole "SHTF" scenario, my wife asks me what kind of weapons we should have. I told her that one of the most under looked weapons to have in your arsenal is a nice high power pellet rifle for hunting small game to not only conserve ammo, but also to keep quiet if you do not have a "can" on your other weapons. But with that I also have the other rifle I believe a person could never do without being the trusty Ruger 10/22. Now, the 10/22 I built for my wife is all tricked out with the Timney trigger, the fluted threaded bull barrel along with the raptor rifle stock but in all fairness, the amount of ammo you can carry with this weapon is nuts. My toss up between the AR 15/10 is exactly that, in the air. Price wise the .223 is much better but the .308 is both a wonderful weapon for laying down possible suppressive fire as well as being a precision sniper rifle as long as you carry the extra upper. That's the thing I love about the AR platform. So many people seem to forget that you can carry more than 1 upper for a variety of needs. You could for example have the short barrel upper with the 4 rails system built up for CQC. The Eotech sight, the green laser, for end grip etc... IF your lower has the PRS Magpul as the butt stock, you can swap out the upper with a 24" fluted target barrel that already has your optic fixed on it, maybe a bi-pod up front and then you can add the mono pod on the Magpul to have a complete sniper rifle. Like I said though, I just have not decided which round I would want as the primary rifle or if building one of each with 2 different uppers would suffice. I have always had that .338 Lapua Mag in the back of my head ever since Savage built that new one being offered for around $1200. Buy a nice H-S Precision stock, add a nice Leopold Mk4 and now you not only have the ultimate in long distance sniper systems but you also have one heck of an anti material weapon as well. Think taking out vehicles heck even choppers if they ever became a threat. I know, I know, doom and gloom and while all that 12/21/2012 stuff IMO is a bunch of rubbish as far as that being the exact date, I do believe that our generation may very well live to see some thing come to pass that no other one ever has nor ever will. With guns as you said, that big .50cal could end up being a hole puncher where the intended threat lives to fight another day while that .22 cal pellet rifle that shoots at 1500fps enters a person temple area or eye socket and ends their life. Sorry my post is so long and for sounding like a dooms day fanatic. Hope people enjoy and I would be very interested in opinions concerning what I have brought up.
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Old May 5, 2012, 02:13 PM   #64
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I was once there: thanks for you support. You bring up a good point of not completely disregarding the smaller caliber carbines in combat, I think there are documented Israeli Mossad engagements with .22 pistols. I have a Colonel that works with me that says that he has heard of many Israelis run up and just unload the clip into your head or chest. Again, enough of any caliber and in the right spot can ensure death if you just keep shooting until they are confirmed dead, but taking a shot and then checking to see if they are dead with any caliber often times will not have the result you were hoping for. Any hunter probably has that story about the deer or random animal they swear they made a kill shot with that .30-06 or .308, only to chase the thing through the woods and find it dead hundreds of yards away. Just because the bullet hit center mass on where the animals heart should be, doesn't mean it hit their heart at all, it was just a higher probability of ending up there. Ribs love to deflect things in angles that sometimes don't even make any sense. Sometimes you get left with some Kennedy bullet theory story because the pieces just don't add up.
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Old May 5, 2012, 06:46 PM   #65
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The Mossad did use .22 Short pistols, but they specialized in assasinations. Their prefered technique was to come up behind the target on the street, and empty thier .22 short Barretta into the back of the targets head, the drop the pistol and casually walk away.

That is not combat!
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Old May 5, 2012, 11:43 PM   #66
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Actually, the Israelis issued Beretta model 70 22LR (not short) to their sky marshals. The following account describes one (of two epsiodes of the use of the Beretta by Mordechai Rachamim) instance in which the Beretta was used against hijackers.

During the incident that took place in February of 1969, Israeli Sky Marshal Mordechai Rachamim engaged several heavily armed Arab terrorists as they attacked an EL Al airliner on a snow covered runway in Zurich. Despite the odds against him, the young Israeli sky marshal expertly used his issued Beretta Model 70 pistol to kill one of the Palestinian terrorists, moments before the Zurich Police arrived and took the remaining terrorists into custody.
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Old May 6, 2012, 12:05 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc TH
...The following account describes one (of two epsiodes of the use of the Beretta by Mordechai Rachamim) instance in which the Beretta was used against hijackers....
When posting something that purports to be an account of an actual event, it's good form to include a link or at least cite a source.
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Old May 6, 2012, 02:19 PM   #68
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Tactical Weapons May 2009.
There have also been many threads on the Beretta model 70 in the Firing Line Forums that contain similar information.
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:58 AM   #69
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Well said

Thanks for the first hand account, information, and practical advice.
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Old May 27, 2012, 06:59 AM   #70
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War Surgery Experiences? Absolutely none.
Enlisted in USMC in 1963. We received First Aid with emphasis on Stop the bleeding, Clear the airway and Treat for shock. That is if a corpman was not present.
All of our First Aid training was as stated above even including our pre-deployment training for our turn in the barrel in Vietnam. I was a rifle sqd. leader and aided our corpman (we had 1 per plt.) when he got overwhemed with casualties. I have treated a sunken chest wound, intestines outside of the body cavity, assisted in 2 tracheotomies, and head wounds.
If I remember when we administered a tourniquet we placed a "T" with the wounded Marines blood on his forehead, and noted the time the tourniquet was placed.
For the sunken chest wound we wrapped his poncho around him to create an air tight protection.
Intestines outside the body cavity we poured water over the intestines and placed them back into his body.
Head wounds, we treated for shock, and I think that was about it.
When I assisted with the tracheomatamy, the corpman used a ballpoint pen for the breathing tube.
When the corpman administered morphine, he carried 1/4 gram serettes, he would stick the used serette for however many he used on the left lepel of the casualties uniform.
Medical evac. was fast, ever when we were under heavy fire day or night. I remember several occasions when along with the Medevac. came extra corpman to help on the ground because our corpman was overwhelmed.

On several occasions after we were taken out of the field I went over to our Battalion Aid Station (BAS) to see the status of some of my men. That place looked and smelled like a slaughter house. Literally blood and discarted bandages all over the floor. You were walking and slipping in the blood.
Don't ask me about the triage corner. All of our politians and citizens who get their rocks off spouting off lets (not them of course) go kill'em and let God sort them out spend a few minutes there.

Camar out.
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Old May 27, 2012, 07:21 AM   #71
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Thanks to everyone who served and to those still in service.

Anyone could be trained to pull a trigger and take a life. It takes a whole lot more to save one. Here's to the medics!
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