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Old May 6, 2012, 07:17 AM   #26
Bart B.
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oldman's FCSA example of what annealing necks each and every firing to maintain consistency between loadings does for accuracy:
Quote:
The small group record for FCSA of 5-shots under 2" center-to-center at 1000 yards was on brass loaded 47 times, annealed each and every loading. Must be something true about the process.

Chose your answers wisely - some will tell you I'm all wet - others will have their specialty answers - you do the research, make your own decisions, and learn from them.
Well, I did the research and made my decisions. Maybe you should learn from them.

Note that this record is the smallest 5-shot group shot ever fired by the record holder in FCSA competition. All the others are larger; how much is hidden from public view. It's another example of statistical luck. But such is the way it is for competitive group shooters.

If you check out the FSCA web site's record page, you'll see that 5-shot record holder also holds the 6 five-shot group aggregate record (average of six 5-shot groups) of 6.4 inches in the heavy gun class. The light gun class record of 5.823 inches was set that same day by someone else. And the 5-shot record holder shot another aggregate record of 5.417 inches aboiut 5 weeks later. Those aggregate records hold single groups larger than the average; typically up to 50 percent larger. So that single 5-shot record holder's anneal-every-time process in FCSA competition must not have done all that well overall. The rifle's ammo shot groups on July 4, 2009 ranging from 1.955" up to somewhere around 8 inches or more. How much consistancy does his annealing every time really produce? Unless the largest 5-shot group sizes are known, it's impossible to tell. For all we know the guy who holds those records may also have fired the largets single 5-shot group of all. I really don't believe there's anything true about the process; the records back me up. We don't know what the average 5-shot group and largest group sizes are for all groups shot for the life of the barrels used. We only know about the smallest ones.

Some years ago, a friend clamped his Win. 70 based .308 Win. match rifle in his machine rest, took one new Federal brass case, loaded it with max powder charges of IMR4895 under Sierra 168 HPMK's 57 (yes, fifty-seven) times putting all bullets into about 3/10ths inch at 100 yards. That one case was full length sized every time and never annealed once in the tests. The die's neck was lapped out to about 2 thousandths less than a loaded round's neck diameter. Bullets were seated out to be set back a few thousandths when the round was chambered. The chronograph showed muzzle velocity spread was under 25 fps with metered (not weighed) powder charges.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 6, 2012 at 07:37 AM.
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Old May 6, 2012, 07:37 AM   #27
oldmanFCSA
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Comparing Apples and Oranges again.

I'm talking 1000 yards.

You're talking 100 yards.

I'm talking 3 5-shot groups on Saturday and 3 5-shot groups on Sunday averaged together, and we shoot regardless of weather conditions.

You're talking all shots on one bench rest sitting.

If you can do better, please come to the World Match June 30th thru July 2nd at the NRA Whittington Center in Raton, NM, and show us how it's done.

I'll be waiting for you.
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Old May 6, 2012, 08:41 AM   #28
Bart B.
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oldman, your comments:
Quote:
I'm talking 1000 yards. You're talking 100 yards.
I mentioned what happened at 100 yards of an example of what most folks can relate to.

The records I referred to were all 1000 yard ones. Those are the ones directly related to the crux of this issue.

One can easliy see that the best of those FCSA rifles shoot under 7 or 8 inches all the time at 1000 yards. Records only reflect what happens the smallest percentage of the time. Their largest groups happen just as often as their smallest ones. If you don't realize that, so be it. Smart people know that's the way it is. Shucks, I've put 5 consecutive shots from a .308 Win. into 2 inches at 1000 yards using aperture metallic sights slung up in prone, but there's no way that represents what the rifle and its ammo can be counted on to do all the time.

Please, please tell us what the largest groups shot are. That way, we'll get the whole story, not just the smallest ones at the low end that one can count on less than 1% of the time.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 6, 2012 at 09:29 AM.
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:37 AM   #29
oldmanFCSA
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The topic is Neck Tension, and how to control it reliably from case to case.

Not how poorly I shoot in high wind conditions.

You are so biased against BenchRest Shooters that it really stands out in your replies. Why don't you stick to the Topic as started.

I'm sure your groups are just as poor as the average shooter in wind conditions at long range.

The point I was making is case life and proper annealing and neck tensions are all related. Applying only different ball diameters, or modifying a sizing dies's ID to minimize working of brass, or using a FCD, or neck sealant, or minimal neck tensions, are all tools the reloader and shooter has at his ability to produce the most consistent accurate loadings possible. My reference to the Match Record was to demonstrate that cases can be used many more times than most reloaders think possible by annealing to maintain the consistent properties of neck tension. Your Friends special sized die is not the normal capability of most reloaders.

This is NOT a p***ing match - this IS an educational topic for others to learn what is important and to learn all the techniques easily possible for accurate loadings.

Please stay on topic.

(To the Moderators - the P-word is important in this context - sorry I had to use it.)
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:53 AM   #30
Bart B.
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oldman......
Quote:
This is NOT a ******* match - this IS an educational topic for others to learn what is important and to learn all the techniques easily possible for accurate loadings.
Fine. Then tell us what the largest groups fire with that technique so all can see the results the represent what can be expected all the time, not just a very few times. If it's not important, then it doesn't matter what tools and techniques one uses to reload ammo. If they shoot enough groups, one will be the smallest ever.

Quote:
You are so biased against BenchRest Shooters that it really stands out in your replies. Why don't you stick to the Topic as started.
I'm not biased, but just want to get the whole story. Long range benchrest rifles and ammo's no more accurate than what high power prone fired match rifles and F-class one are at long range. The best of them shoot under 7 inches all the time in good conditions properly tested.

Why are benchresters so biased against telling folks what the largest groups fired by record holders are? Why don't you tell us.....or are you biased, too?

Quote:
Your Friends special sized die is not the normal capability of most reloaders.
It is if the get a full bushing die. Normal people have the capability of buying and using one. Probably costs less than all the annealing tools. And the total time to reload a fired case will be less.

Last edited by Bart B.; May 6, 2012 at 10:03 AM.
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:57 AM   #31
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oldmanFCSA, Are you just learning that Bart B doesn't like groups shooter and the only accurate rifle is F-Class. It's funny but you get on
http://benchrest.com/forum.php they include the F-Class shooters and you get on http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ they include all type match shooters.

I sure don't mind learning from match shooters but bad mouth others isn't the way to go and I'm surprise it's gone this far here.

Oh by the way Bart B I deleted you PM to me as I wasn't interested in your bragging on you F-Class scores!!!
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Old May 6, 2012, 10:07 AM   #32
Bart B.
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oldroper:
Quote:
Oh by the way Bart B I deleted you PM to me as I wasn't interested in your bragging on you F-Class scores!!!
That was not an F-Class score and I wasn't shooting for score; you misread my PM. And I don't shoot F-Class nor do I think (nor have ever claimed) the rifles and ammo used in that discipline are the only accurate one. But I know why you're not interested in anyone shooting well or better than what's touted as "the best."
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Old May 6, 2012, 11:03 AM   #33
old roper
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Bart B, You seem to forget the question I was asking in my post and x count which you send me think it was 13X open sights if I remember right. Here is copy of my question that I posted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bart B, You not comparing apples to apples F-Class to BR 1000yd matches.


http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html

The above rifle is shot with rear bag same as BR so there is no reposition of the shoulder, there looking at bag technique same as the BR guy do.

If your looking at F-Class like the above rifle that I post and those rifles can shot inside 6" group @ 1000yds as you claim why isn't there a perfect X score shot at each match.
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Bart B, I wasn't interest in what you did open site since I was trying to find what you claim a F-Class rifle could do
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Old May 6, 2012, 02:27 PM   #34
Bart B.
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old roper says:
Quote:
Bart B, You seem to forget the question I was asking in my post and x count which you send me think it was 13X open sights if I remember right. Here is copy of my question that I posted
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your looking at F-Class like the above rifle that I post and those rifles can shot inside 6" group @ 1000yds as you claim why isn't there a perfect X score shot at each match.
And here's my response to your question:
Quote:
I was comparing my shoulder fired rifles slung up in the prone position and both their fore end and stock toe resting on bags. One so held will keep its point of aim well inside a 1 inch circle at 1000 yards.

I and others have been testing that way since the 1960's; long before F Class matches were originated. That's not how they're fired in conventional NRA high power prone matches as explained in an earlier post. But I have shot all of some test groups inside that 10-inch X ring testing ammo. Most I've had shooting matches was 13 out of 20 shots fired.
I didn't mention what type of sights I used. It happened to be a Weaver T20 scope. But I've done almost that with aperture sights. Neither are open sights. The prone record in high power (not F-Class) with scope's 19 Xes and with aperture it's 17 Xes.
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Old May 17, 2012, 09:59 AM   #35
oldmanFCSA
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My final response on this posting.

May 6, 2012, 09:57 AM #31
old roper
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Join Date: June 11, 2007
Posts: 367 oldmanFCSA, Are you just learning that Bart B doesn't like groups shooter and the only accurate rifle is F-Class. It's funny but you get on
http://benchrest.com/forum.php they include the F-Class shooters and you get on http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ they include all type match shooters.

I sure don't mind learning from match shooters but bad mouth others isn't the way to go and I'm surprise it's gone this far here.

Oh by the way Bart B I deleted you PM to me as I wasn't interested in your bragging on you F-Class scores!!!
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Old Roper - Thank you for your response, it is much appreciated.

However -

I've held off from responding to several of the last postings as I feel we are just "feeding Bart B's ego". Now don't surmise this as a personal attack on Bart B, it is the general feeling of many Forum Members here, especially upon reading other topics referencing Long Range shooting.

His constant request for Largest Group size at 1000 yards is inmaterial to this topic as outside conditions are the largest factor in shooting group sizes, user ability, wind condition, rain, snow, hail, etc,. We at FCSA, and many other shooting groups, shoot in all those varying conditions, not in an underground 100 yard facility as Bart B likes to use for his testing, as stated in some of his other threads. Being able to test in a facility like that has NO real world application to the Outside World.

I highly recommend this topic be LOCKED. Before it gets ugly.

Anyone who wishes to contact me to further this topic, other than Bart B, please PM me.

I'm done.
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Old May 20, 2012, 12:30 PM   #36
F. Guffey
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Neck tension? I can not measure neck tension, I can measure bullet hold, I fired 4 boxs Federal GM 300 Win Mag in a non Weatherby rifle in a non Weatherby chamber, after 4 boxes and a lot of adjusting the 74 th round when through the absolute canter, in two hours another shooter put the next five rounds in the same hole, I applied the leaver policy to that rifle, I lefter the way I founder. And, I will tell you the chamber in that rifle is no common ordinary chamber. Most of the adjustments involved scope base, rings and scope.

The next rifle, a Winchester model 70 300 Win Mag was sent back to Winchester, after 6 boxes and reloads the rifle shot patters, not groups, if I enjoyed wasting my time at the range shooting a 300 Win mag I would take the Winchester to the range to determine if Winchester made improvements before sending it back. It has been 4 years, and I will never understand how honing, polishing and reaming will reduce the diameter and length of a chamber, the ugliest chamber I have ever seen, I purchased the ugliest rifle ever built for $120.00, I purchased it for parts, but first I took it to the range with 5 boxes of reloads, different cases, bullets, powder and primers, no patterns, just small groups, again, I applied the leaver policy.

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