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Old April 18, 2012, 08:49 AM   #1
TX Hunter
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questions about forming 8X57 Cases

Ive got and old Lee Progressive Press, a 3 die Lee set of 8MM Mauser Dies. Ive got .323 Speer bullets . Powder, and primers. Lyman trimmer and Dremmel tool. I plan to make brass from 30 06. My question is after I trim to leingth will it damage my lee dies when I expand the necks ? And also after i form my cases if I fire form them and neck size them with a set of neck size dies will they stik cycle through a Mauser Action ? Any help is apreciated.
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Old April 18, 2012, 09:35 AM   #2
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I can't imagine expanding the necks from .308 to .323 will hurt your die. Those expander balls are pretty tough, especially compared to brass.
I guess when you say 'cycle through a Mauser action' you mean 'will the cases fit the chamber without a lot of force required to close the bolt'. Is that correct? You'll have to try it and see. I usually full length resize cases formed from a different caliber, but after shooting them some they usually will fit the chamber with neck sizing only. Depends on the individual case and the individual rifle.
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Old April 18, 2012, 09:43 AM   #3
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Thanks Rev

Yes thats what I meant, if I fire form to the chamber will the increase in diameter make it hard to chamber a Round. I was thinking my chamber may be long with a military rifle and my cases would last longer if i dont move the shoulder back and forth with full leingth resizing. My Rifle is a Yugo 24 47.
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Old April 19, 2012, 06:32 AM   #4
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Well

Hmm, from the limited amount of replies i can only guess that I am venturing into an unknown part of reloading. I will take it upon myself to learn all aspects of this conversion through trial and error so the next guy that seeks wisdom of this subject will have a source of information. Thanks to all
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Old April 19, 2012, 08:50 AM   #5
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Once you fire form them, they'll behave just like any other piece of brass.

Neck or FL size is a personal choice.

I FL size everything these days. A FL sized cartridge lasts just as long and is just as accurate as a necked sized cartridge, IF the die is set up correctly.

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Old April 19, 2012, 09:48 AM   #6
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Thanks Microawesome .22

Im going to make some 8x57 this weekend and full leingth size them. I will cut the leingth with a dremal, then chamer before running them through the sizing die. I will post the results. I want to get that lee trim die midway sells but will just free hand it for now.
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Old April 19, 2012, 02:53 PM   #7
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Iraqveteran8888 on youtube has a great video on forming 8x57 brass from 30-06. Should answer your questions.
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Old April 19, 2012, 04:19 PM   #8
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Thanks Big Papa

I will check his video out, i was starting to think this was a lost art. LOL
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Old April 20, 2012, 12:11 PM   #9
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I also reform .30-06 and .270Win into 8X57, as well as .284Win into 7.5 Swiss, and have been known to form .243 into .308. During the runup to the 2008 failed election, brass got scarce, so I had to use what I could scrounge at the range. I used calibers I don't have guns for, so the brass was not wasted.
I do find a bit more lube is needed, as the force needed to reform is greater.
I also use my old single stage press, to keep from stressing my turret press.
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Old April 20, 2012, 05:05 PM   #10
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I form 8 X 57 cases from 30/06 Lake City military cases.

I use a Redding form die made especialy for this process.

I lube the case well and then using a Rock Chucker press, I run the case into the die, cut the protruding excess brass off with a fine tooth hacksaw with the case still in the die (its made to do this), use a fine tooth file to square the neck (again with the case still in the die), remove the case and then bevel the case mouth inside and out. The case is then ready for loading in the normal manner.

I use the cases thus fomed in several military mausers with good success.
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Old April 22, 2012, 08:24 AM   #11
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Scharfschuetzer, Bigdog57

Thanks for the tips, I figured sooner or later someone with caseforming experince would read this post.
I dont have the trim die, but will get it. I will look up Redding.
I have a crimp die in my Lee set, that I probably wont use, I could put the Redding in the place of that and trim the necks off with my dremmel cut off wheel.
Im gonna reload some 8x57 Brass that I have today, and try a few of my free handed 30 06 cases. Thanks for the help.
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Old April 22, 2012, 09:57 AM   #12
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A builder, shooter, reloader was having a perceived problem, seems the necks on his bench rest type rifles were too large in diameter after firing, it mattered not that his groups were ‘one hole’, someone convinced him the difference between the neck of the case before firing was too small in diameter at .335 thousandths, after firing the diameter of the neck was .345 thousandths. So, I offered to tighten the necks, after finishing his necks measured .341 thousandths before firing and .345 thousandths after firing, I understand this is some risky stuff when applied to to multiple chambers.

Forming 308 W from 30/06 uses the same technique as going from 30/06 to 8mm57. Again, he has an A2 RCBS press, a cam over press, unfortunately he insist on using Imperial sizing wax and or Dillon in the spray can or spray bottle, forming the 30/06 to 308W was a workout for his press.

Trimming,? I use the hack saw, the man tool for reloaders, when trimming 308 W cases that have been formed from 30/06 it is necessary to trim close to 50 inches of brass, the top of the die is supposed to be harder than a file, after trimming the case above the die with a hack saw, I finish with a file, that does not mean the case former must run the file down to the top of the die, the reloader can choose to trim the cases to length after getting the case down to manageable length. I have a 30/06 forming trim die that needs to go back to RCBS, it is .032 thousandths too short.

Forming die, which one? If I had one forming die it would be the 308 W, with the 308 W forming die a reloader/case former can form 7.7 Japanese cases from 30/06, 8mm57 Mauser and 308 W cases etc. if they can can adjust the die off the shell holder with a hint of accuracy, the 243 W forming die also works for cases with smaller diameter necks, again the former/reloader must be able to be able to do the math as in A – B =C when C is the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder with the ram up.

One big advantage, all cases are manufactured to a specification, for me that is a handicap, I am not a fire former, I form first, when forming cases like the 8mm57 from 30/06 I adjust the die to form the shoulder to eliminate the difference between the length of the chamber with the length of the case, my press/die/shell holder, my case, my chamber, when forming/sizing I place the shoulder where I want it. That is not possible when the chamber is longer than than the case from the head of the case to it’s shoulder, AND do not believe you are moving the shoulder forward and or backwards, just so you understand what is going on scribe the case body/shoulder juncture, then scribe the shoulder/neck juncture, when forming the 30/06 shoulder does not move, it is erased and become part of the neck, the case body/shoulder juncture does not move (nor it is bumped) it is erased and becomes part of the case body.

Back to the Eddystone with .016 thousandths head space, I off set the length of the chamber with longer cases and forming dies, I use 280 Remington (.051 thousandths shoulder ahead of the 30/06 shoulder) cases with a 30/06 forming die adjusted off the shell holder .016 thousands to form the cases, then adjust the 30/06 full length sizer doe off the shell holder .014 thousandths. When forming cases it does not get better than when using new cases, after that it is once fired cases, after that it is basically going through the motions, but there is always annealing to the rescue, and I make annealing equipment, my own annealing equipment.

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Last edited by F. Guffey; April 22, 2012 at 10:02 AM. Reason: 30/06 changed to 280 Remington, my favorite case.
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Old April 22, 2012, 11:14 AM   #13
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I load for and shoot a few Ackley Improved calibers and making the proper case is obviously part and parcel of wildcatting. Annealing cases is a big part of forming cases for me. I always anneal used cases first thing, before any other step.
TX Hunter, I think you are right. Along with many reloading skills, case forming seems to be a dying art. The early to mid 20th century was a real golden era of handloading with smokeless powder. After the world wars many 'foreign' rifles were brought back by returning Doughboys and GIs and in many instances cases had to be formed from what brass was available.
'Experimentation' seems to be a dirty word in today's handloading world. In the 'old days' guys made do with what they had or could find. Without the experiments of guys like Townsend Whelen, Elmer Keith, P.O. Ackley, Lysle Kilbourn and the various Lyman family members many cartridges that are very popular today wouldn't exist.
One of the cool things about handloading, like many hobbies, is that one can plumb the depths to what ever extent one wishes.
I'm reminded of this quote by Jack O'Connor:
'Handloading can be dangerous. Careless people do blow up rifles and revolvers and injure themselves. Anyone taking up loading necessarily plays with unknown factors and takes chances. But so does anyone who drives a car, goes to a cocktail party, eats in a restaurant, or gets married.'
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Old April 22, 2012, 12:17 PM   #14
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FGuffey, Rev Geo

Well we didnt go to church this morning, got a kid sick, so we stayed home with him.
I made some 8 MM I used some 8mm Cases, and converted about ten 30 06 cases. They turned out pretty good.
It was not near as hard to expand the necks as I thought, I didnt have the trimming die, so I free handed with a Dremel, You must use safety glasses for this, as it throws alot of schrapnel.
I have turned this house over looking for my 8mm Pilot for my trimmer, I used a 30 calliber pilot, it was close I measuered everything came out even.
I used my callipers and measured a once fired 8mm case, that was within specs, and trimmed all my other brass to that leingth, and chamfered.
I loaded up 21 rounds using 44.2 grains of IMR 4895 and loaded Speer hot core 150 Grain. (.323) 44.0 was the starting load in my manual, I ended up getting 44.2 but thats not a big difference. I will try this box for accuracy and to inspect the brass and see how the necks hold up.
I will get the trim die, a New 8mm Pilot for my lyman trimmer, and a one some fine tooth blades for my hacksaw.
I did notice that my charge of powder filled the case to the shoulder, It looks like 4 more grains would almost be a compressed load. You can shake them and hear the powder, but it looked like a pretty full case with 44.2 grains.
I wanted to start light, maby stay light. a 44.0 charge or 4895 is supposed to produce a muzzle velocity of 2248. Im using the Complete Reloading Manual for the 8mm Mauser. Published by Loadbooks USA. This load is on Page 16. Thanks for the help, I will let you know how they fire.
I do plan to get the Redding Trim Die, and some fine tooth blades for my hacksaw.
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Old April 22, 2012, 03:26 PM   #15
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Sucess

Well I tried a few of my loads for function, case stress, and accuracy.
The Recoil was not bad, muzzle blast sounded right, cases looked great, no sighns of stress.
And although not a true accuracy test, with elbows supporting the rifle on a picknick table shooting at a paper plate at 50 yards a four shot group of 1.511 with two rounds touching I used a digital caliper and measured from center hole to center hole of the two farthest apart shots with the other two in the middle of the group.

I am very well pleased, thanks to all for the help.
The Rifle is a Yugo 20 47 with a tall front sight from brownells, rear sight on 600 because I have not trimmed the sight yet.
The load was 44.2 grains of IMR 4895 with a Speer Hot Core 150 Grain Soft point. I think it shot well out of this Iron Sighted Beauty.
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Old April 22, 2012, 08:14 PM   #16
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Great results TX!

It should get even better (and easier) with that purpose made trim die.

Those Yugos can sure be good shooters.
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Old April 23, 2012, 08:47 AM   #17
TX Hunter
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Thanks Scarfschuetzer

Yes sir, i was happy with the Results, the impacts were center of plate and functioned well in the action. 8 mm mauser is not as easy to get here as other cartridges its nice to be able to enjoy the rifle now. I bet the load i made would work well for hunting as well.

Last edited by TX Hunter; April 23, 2012 at 09:08 AM. Reason: mispelled name
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Old May 4, 2012, 09:26 AM   #18
TX Hunter
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Well Im about to be all set

I checked with Midway and found the Redding die, but also found an RCBS trim and form die, it took me a while to decide between the two but ended up buying the RCBS, it forms the case, and you can also trim the leingth.
I should be able to make some really nice cases, also picked up a few other items I needed. Like a Primer Pocket reamer, and a new chamfer tool, because the one I have is borrowed, so I wish to return it. also went ahead and ordered an 8MM Pilot for my Lyman trimmer. This is alot of fun
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:02 AM   #19
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Well I got the stuff, this die works perfect and makes it easy. After going through this die and trimming, the finishing with full leingth sizing die. Thanks for all the help guys. I plan to make a video of this and post it on Yutube with step by step instructions.
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Old May 17, 2012, 05:51 AM   #20
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From my notes:
The .30-06 to 8mm Mauser case conversion has some side effects. I started by using LC military cases...did all the usual things...fired a box of 20 rounds using 49gr IMR4064 with the Sierra 175gr ProHunter...all went well EXCEPT...almost every case had a short vertical split in the neck where the old .30-06 neck/should joint was. I am now repeating the whole process with commercial brass (Win and R-P) to see if the vertical split problem recurs.
Off to the side...making .308 from .30-06 brass represents a strategy issue. It is physically hard because you are both pushing the shoulder back AND neck sizing at the same time. Not good! Always try to push the should back in a separate first step (usually using a separate/different die). Then trim the excess length. Finally size the neck...much less friction/resistance.
Note...I use Imperial sizing wax VERY THINLY applied with fingers.
More notes later...I have to go spray some pastures....
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Old May 17, 2012, 09:37 AM   #21
F. Guffey
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"Not good! Always try to push the should back in a separate first step (usually using a separate/different die)"



Pushing the shoulder back causes the case body to wad-up, I suggest using a forming die, the forming die erases the shoulder meaning part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder AND! part of the shoulder becomes part of the neck, meaning the shoulder of the 30/06 did not move, the shoulder became something else AND! the 8mm57 shoulder is a formed shoulder not a shoulder that was moved back.





"...almost every case had a short vertical split in the neck where the old .30-06 neck/should joint was. I am now repeating the whole process with commercial brass"



Again, I have no clue what chamber you are forming cases for, I do not know the dimensions of the chamber, Your success will depend of the understanding of case difference between military and commercial cases, the head of the military surplus case measures .200 + a little, the commercial R-P case head measures .260 -/+ a little, meaning the military case body is thinner with with a case body that is thicker, because? they say the military surplus case is heavier, and if so, the body must be thicker because the case head is thinner, so when making a choice between the two I choose to know the diameter of the chamber neck, after that there is neck reaming and annealing.



" Finally size the neck...much less friction/resistance.
Note...I use Imperial sizing wax VERY THINLY applied with fingers"



The instructions that come with the forming/trim die instruct full length sizing is necessary because the forming/trim die is not a sizer die, the shoulder of the formed case is not formed to chamber, the neck is not formed to chamber and the case body requires sizing, measure before and again after. I do not promote a particular lube.



A friend ask for help in forming cases for wildcats he builds, he has an A2 RCBS press, we started with Imperial sizing was, then went to Dillon in the can and bottle, and then I offered to make a trip home to get the good stuff, anyhow, we managed to reduce the neck expansion of his fired cases from .335 to .345 after firing to .340 to .345.


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Last edited by F. Guffey; May 17, 2012 at 09:44 AM. Reason: change of to is
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Old May 17, 2012, 09:40 AM   #22
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Then there is the part that is always left out, the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder, datum. Never considered, when forming a long case to a short case the reloader passes up every opportunity to form cases that the chamber. It is always, screw the die down to the shell holder, and that is a bad habit that is most difficult to overcome, me? When sizing a case, for me, it is easier to form it to fit than it is to make a trip to the range to form, and remember, form then size, fire to form and we do not know how many times the case was fired before we decided to form, so it does not surprise me the case cracked, split or separated, and those cases that split or separate where they are not suppose to split, and then the rational?? One rationalized he had .005 thousandths too much head space, and, I did not have the benefit of knowing what receiver/design he was using.



Anyhow, I suggest using new cases or once fired cases, and forming is a process of work hardening, annealing should be a consideration.



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Old May 18, 2012, 02:25 AM   #23
wileybelch
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Some extra data:
The rifle used was a M98 Persian Mauser in next to mint condition. Original barrel. My gunsmith confirmed proper/safe headspace of the chamber.
Pushing the should back causes the case to 'wad up'?? I never saw any wadding up or other visible or measureable indication of physical distortion after this step. The shoulder set back was smooth and uneventful (except for occasional lube 'bubbles' on the shoulder when I didn't make the wax layer thin enough).
Measurements of the 'head' were made where?
I found no particular need for neck turning after my forming as the neck thickness was typically 0.014" or so.
All formed cases passed a quality control step using a Wilson 8 x 57mm case gauge perfectly. That's as close as I can get to a non-headspace issue on the first firing. The vertical split on the necks of the LC cases must originate from some other cause. The fact that it always occurs at the old -'06 neck-shoulder joint is too consistent to be ignored. Further: the splits were short, bracketed the joint, and never extended to the mouth of the fired case; I take this to indicate the chamber neck diameter is not grossly out of spec for the 8mm Mauser.
My bench process offers observations to alert those who wish to make functional brass for the 8mm Mauser without spending unwarranted money on one-of-a-kind form-and-trim die sets. The work continues...
I don't promote anything, either. Just stating the facts of the work.
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Old May 18, 2012, 09:44 AM   #24
F. Guffey
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“My gunsmith confirmed proper/safe headspace of the chamber”

You have a press, die and shell holder with a forming die, you took your rifle to a gunsmith and the gun smith said an 8mmX57 round will chamber. Again, I check head space three different ways without a head space gage because I do not shoot head space gages, I shoot loaded ammo. When forming cases for a chamber there is no added expense involved when forming the cases to fit if the reloader is familiar with the press, die and shell holder, I use the length of the case to off set the chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber.

The shoulder of the 30/06 is ahead of the 8mm57 shoulder .121 thousandths, meaning when forming the 8mm57 from 30/06 the reloader/case former has an opportunity match the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder with the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber.

Had I checked your head space I would have given you the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber or datum, and I would have suggested you adjust your die to prevent reducing the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder, and I would have informed you the effect the chamber was going to have on the case when fired as opposed to the popular practice exercised by reloaders today, that would be fire first then determine the effect the the chamber had on the case after firing.

According to your smith’s instruction your chamber is at least as long as a go-gage but shorter than a no go-gage chamber, meaning you could have .008 thousandths difference in length between the case and chamber when measured from the head of the case to its shoulder and the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. When forming I have no control over the length of the chamber, I do have control over the length of the case, again it is mindless to form the shoulder further back than necessary, adjusting the die down to the shell holder with the additional fractional turn of 1/4 to 1/2 turn is following instructions, adjusting the die to of off the shell holder demonstrates an understanding of sizing and forming, the alternative? Going through the motions of pulling the handle.

Even with a no go-gage I can determine the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder, meaning when a no go-gage is too long from the head of the head of the gage to its shoulder to allow the bolt to close I can determine, in thousandths, the difference in length between the chamber and gage.

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Last edited by F. Guffey; May 18, 2012 at 05:08 PM. Reason: change s to ths
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Old May 19, 2012, 10:33 AM   #25
TX Hunter
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Wileybelch, guffy.

Wow, I thought this thread had died from lack of interest, thanks for posting.
I was wondering the same thing about how far Im moving the shoulder back, I am only using light loads of 44.2 grains IMR 4895, I dont see any point in using the full pressure loads on a rifle that I will be using @ 200 yards or less with Iron Sights. I thought about neck sizing after I fire form my cases, but so far have been using my full leingth sizing die. I did fire a batch, then aneal them trim and reload. The cases look great after firing except that I have had to tighten the heck out of my collet holding my decaping pin, expander ball, and some of my cases have a shallow ring around the neck.
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