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Old May 5, 2012, 04:26 PM   #1
Jack_Bauer24
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C&R License NFA Question

I was thinking about getting my C&R license to purchase NFA guns but do I have to be an FFL first? Second, how long does this process take once you've submitted the paper work?
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Old May 5, 2012, 04:42 PM   #2
zxcvbob
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A C&R license is a limited class of FFL. You would be surprised what all you can do with it (to maintain a personal gun collection as a hobby) as long as the guns involved are listed as curios or are at least 50 years old.

What exactly are you wanting to do?
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Old May 5, 2012, 06:02 PM   #3
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Your C&R License does not allow you to circumvent or speed up the NFA process. It will not allow you to purchase any NFA arm that is not fully transferable. It can save you about $100 in transfer fees if you transfer a Title 2 C&R weapon.
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Old May 5, 2012, 07:04 PM   #4
James K
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It can save you $200, since there will be no need for a transfer from another state to go through a Class 3 dealer in your state. If you buy from an individual, whether in or out of state, there is a tax on the transfer from the seller to you but no need for any dealer involvement.

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Old May 5, 2012, 07:53 PM   #5
Jack_Bauer24
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Was looking at WWII machine guns. I would guess you get a visit for the ATF ever so often like FFL and Class III dealers?
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Old May 5, 2012, 11:02 PM   #6
medalguy
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Dealers are subject to an annual inspection of their books. As a C&R holder I'm not sure if you will get any inspections at all, unless BATF feels you may be violating some provision of the law. As an owner of a machine gun, you'll probably never see BATF. I've owned machine guns since 1966 and never had an agent visit me. They aren't really interested in legal owners of machine guns, but those who try to circumvent the laws.

Remember a C&R does nothing at all towards helping you acquire Title II weapons. The ONLY advantage, as mboylan stated, is that if you purchase a C&R eligible firearm from a dealer in another state, it can be shipped directly to you instead of going to a FFL in your state first, and then transferred to you. That will save you the cost of one transfer, about $100 is pretty standard, and several months' time in processing the second transfer. There's nothing special about a C&R helping speed up a transfer, and if you buy anything NOT C&R eligible, it's worthless to you.
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:43 AM   #7
Willie Sutton
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So just to clarify: The money saved is the PROFESSIONAL FEE that the buyers in-state dealer charges for his services, not the cost of a tax stamp?

In other words, a "normal" transfer from a dealer out of state to a dealer in state then to an individual or trust only needs one stamp (dealer to dealer transfers are not done on a tax stamp, but rather on their SOT tax fee paid)?


Compare "Case A" to "Case B" below for accuracy:


Case A: Individual wants to buy a Thompson from a guy in another state. Seller hands his Tommy over to his instate dealer, and pays him a few bucks to transfer it to a dealer in the recipients state. Time needed... whatever the BATF takes for the approvals. Cost so far: Professional fee to the dealer. The thing ships to the receiving dealer, who sticks it in his safe while the buyer gets his approval. Time taken... another BATF approval waiting period. Cost now on that end is the tax stamp ($200) plus whatever professional fee the receiving dealer charges.

Total time: Whatever it takes for (2) BATF approvals, one tax stamp, and two dealers fees. Correct? Or is there no BTF approval needed for the seller to hand it to his local dealer? If so, reduce the approval time by (1) cycle.


Case B: C&R Licensee wants to buy the same gun from an out of state individual. Seller hands it to a local dealer and that dealer holds it and initiates a Form 4. That dealer then sends the Form 4 to the buyer directly and that buyer then gets the paperwork done. Once Form 4 is approved, the sellers dealer ships directly to the C&R recipient.

Total time = one BATF approval cycle, total fees = 1 dealer's fee and one tax stamp. Correct?


Downside: Only an INDIVIDUAL can have a C&R FFL, not a Trust, so... it comes with all of the hassles associated with individual purchase v/s Trust purchase.



So... save one fee ($100) maybe one BATF approval time period (someone please clarify) and on the other side of the balance, not have the ability to buy as a Trust.


Any corrections to the above? Somebody please clarify "Case A"?


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Old May 6, 2012, 01:20 PM   #8
Jack_Bauer24
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What is the turnaround time after you've submitted the C&R paperwork?
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Old May 6, 2012, 02:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
What is the turnaround time after you've submitted the C&R paperwork?
Mine took 2.5 to 3 months; that was 3 years ago. I just renewed it 2 weeks ago and they haven't cashed the check yet.
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Old May 7, 2012, 09:54 PM   #10
medalguy
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Willie, you forgot in case A the first transfer from original owner to first FFL is taxable. Add $200 and 6-8 months. Total 2 tax stamps, 2 dealer transfer fees, and 3 BATF wait times of 6-8 months each. And BATFE has to approve every transfer, dealer to dealer or manufacturer to dealer or dealer to individual/trust. There are no shortcuts.

In case B, there are two tax stamps: one to the first dealer, another from the dealer to the buyer. But yes you do save one FFL fee, but you're also right about the C&R belonging to an individual, not a trust. I don't really think it's worth getting the C&R if you have any intention of placing the gun in a trust.
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Old May 8, 2012, 09:52 AM   #11
Willie Sutton
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Thanks for the above, that's far more transfers than seems worthwhile.

But further question: For non-NFA arms, an individual can ship to an out of state FFL. In Case A, could the individual seller ship directly to an out of state FFL for further transfer to the individual buyer and avoid one tax/wait period?


I think the fact that you cannot C&R into a Trust makes the entire thing a moot point for many in any case.

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Old May 8, 2012, 10:36 AM   #12
zxcvbob
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Why can't the C&R holder travel to the seller and take delivery in person and save all but one transfer fee? It shouldn't matter if it's across state lines.
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Old May 8, 2012, 12:02 PM   #13
Willie Sutton
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"It shouldn't matter if it's across state lines."

It shouldn't but it does.

You can't do that with even with a single shot .22 pistol...


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Old May 8, 2012, 01:18 PM   #14
zxcvbob
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§ 478.41 General.
(c) Each person seeking the privileges
of a collector licensed under this part shall
file an application, with the required fee
(see § 478.42), with ATF in accordance
with the instructions on the form (see
§ 478.44), and pursuant to § 478.47, receive
from the Chief, National Licensing
Center, the license covering the collection
of curios and relics. A separate license
may be obtained for each collection premises,
and such license shall, subject to the
provisions of the Act and other applicable
provisions of law, entitle the licensee to
transport, ship, receive, and acquire curios
and relics in interstate or foreign commerce
,
and to make disposition of curios
and relics in interstate or foreign commerce,
to any other person licensed under
the provisions of this part
, for the period
stated on the license.
[emphasis added]

Looks to me like it's legal to buy C&R's out of state, but you can only sell out-of-state to another licensee.
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Old May 8, 2012, 01:26 PM   #15
James K
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After the transfer has been approved, the C&R FFL holder can travel to the seller's state and pick up the gun and take it back home. That is true whether the seller is a dealer or an individual. It is also true, from a federal standpoint, for other guns. A Federal licensee can buy guns (within the limits of his license) anywhere in the U.S. unless there is some state restriction, and take them anywhere in the U.S.

I sold a C&R NFA firearm to a C&R holder who is a resident of a nearby state and wanted to deliver it. I called BATFE to see if I needed approval to transport the gun but the agent gave me his name and said an verbal OK was good enough. In one case, the C&R holder came to my house and picked up the gun and took it with him. He didn't need approval to transport the gun because he was an FFL (C&R license) holder.

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Old May 8, 2012, 04:32 PM   #16
David Hineline
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Willie

individual owner of NFA can ship via tax paid form 4 direct to a dealer in buyers state, no need for dealer in sellers state, but still 2 form 4 tax paid transfers.

C&R collector can buy C&R NFA items direct from seller in another state 1 form 4 tax paid transfer.

FFL can buy NFA direct from out of state any NFA item form 4 1 transfer.

FFL with SOT can buy NFA on form 3 no tax from FFL SOT out of state.

Anyone can buy direct from Govment agency in/out no tax form 5
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Old May 8, 2012, 05:09 PM   #17
Willie Sutton
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Thanks David!

Willie

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Old May 10, 2012, 09:32 PM   #18
johnwilliamson062
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If your thinking of buying a transferable auto and the $170 you save on transfer is holding you back I think you have missed some parts of the equation.

Still, it is a great idea to get a C&R. All kinds of distributors let you sign up as an FFL and you can order C&R things AND non-firearm items at a decent discount.
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Old May 11, 2012, 05:32 PM   #19
Jack_Bauer24
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I've heard about C&R discounts, what is this all about? Anyone got there C&R here?

If you have your C&R can you apply for your SOT Class III or do you need a reguler FFL license first?
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Last edited by Jack_Bauer24; May 11, 2012 at 05:41 PM.
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Old May 11, 2012, 11:10 PM   #20
johnwilliamson062
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I don't at the moment but will probably reapply in the next few weeks. You can register with all kinds of distributors such as CDNN, SOG, Degraff,etc., and see everything you LGS sees. You can walk in knowing the price they pay for normal guns and you can additionally buy anything not needing a transfer at dealer pricing. All for $30.
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Old May 12, 2012, 01:52 AM   #21
Kentucky-75
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Quote:
If you have your C&R can you apply for your SOT Class III or do you need a reguler FFL license first?
C&R is strictly for collecting C&R firearms through interstate commerce.

You need a regular FFL and then get the SOT.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...-firearms.html

Q: Does payment of the tax qualify me to import, manufacture, or deal in NFA firearms?

No, the taxpayer must also have the appropriate Federal Firearms license (FFL). In order to import NFA firearms, the person must have an FFL as an importer of firearms under the Gun Control Act (GCA). Similarly, to manufacture NFA firearms, the person must have an FFL as a manufacturer of firearms under the GCA. To deal in NFA firearms, the person must have an FFL that allows him/her to deal in firearms under the GCA (see next question, too). Please note that importers may also be required to register under the Arms Export Control Act. For further information, please refer to the FAQs dealing with the importation of firearms (Section L).


When must firearms special (occupational) taxes be paid and how much are the taxes?

These taxes must be paid in full on first engaging in business and thereafter on or before the first day of July. The current taxes are set out in the following table.

Special (Occupational) Tax Rates Under The NFA Class of Taxpayer Annual Fee
1. Importer of Firearms (Including “Any Other Weapon”) $1000.00
2. Manufacturer of Firearms (Including “Any Other Weapon”) $1000.00
3. Dealer of Firearms (Including “Any Other Weapon”) $500.00

1.Importer of Firearms (Including “Any Other Weapon”) REDUCED* $500.00

2.Manufacturer of Firearms (Including “Any Other Weapon”) REDUCED* $500.00

REDUCED = Rates which apply to certain taxpayers whose total gross receipts in the last taxable year are less than $500,000

Q: Does a single special (occupational) tax payment entitle a person or firm to import and manufacture firearms?

No. A separate special (occupational) tax payment must be made for each of these activities. However, Class 1 (importer) and Class 2 (manufacturer) special (occupational) taxpayers are qualified to deal in NFA firearms without also having to pay special (occupational) tax as a Class 3 dealer.

[27 CFR 479.39]
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Old May 12, 2012, 09:49 AM   #22
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I don't believe you need a SOT to *collect* C&R machine guns, AOW's, etc. Also, anything on the C&R list should be transferable (and expensive.)
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Old May 12, 2012, 05:40 PM   #23
Kentucky-75
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A person needs a SOT and a FFL is they want to deal in NFA items.

Anyone can get a NFA item (if they live in a state that allows it, and they could afford it and are not prohibited) without a FFL or SOT.

A FFL and SOT is not needed to get NFA items.

A C&R can be used to receive C&R items interstate. A C&R can be used to acquire C&R NFA items, all NFA rules apply.

You can buy a 50 year old machine gun in the next state over (without a dealer) but you still have to go through the NFA stamp process and use your C&R for the interstate part.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html


Q: May a licensed collector obtain NFA firearms in interstate commerce?

Only if the firearms are classified as curios or relics, are registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record, and are transferred in accordance with the provisions of the NFA.

[27 CFR 479.83 – 479.86]
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