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Old May 6, 2012, 09:30 AM   #1
jclayto
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Join Date: February 14, 2005
Location: Anderson, SC
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Finally ready to enter the NFA world.

First, I have an awesome wife. For our 5 year anniversary she setup an appointment with a lawyer for us to obtain an NFA trust. I apologize in advance for what will be a lengthy post, but I have a few questions that I would like input on.

For the trust I will be naming my wife and myself as co-trustees so that she would be able to use the items without me present. I intend to name future children as successors for the items. In the even of our death I understand that our children would become owners of the items without need of paying a separate transfer tax correct? If our children are only successors, do they become authorized users after our death? I guess the real question is I am a little blurry on the difference between authorized user or co-trustee as I have heard it referred to versus successor?

We then stopped by a local gun shop so that I could speak with them about a Surbu shorty and ended up leaving with a Mac 11 in mind. I am considering the m11 for 3 main reasons

Investment - I understand that transferable guns are increasing in value so
I am viewing it as a long term investment.

Low cost - Honestly, it's about the lowest cost SMG available and offers a
lot of flexibility with additional uppers and add on options.

Lage .22 kit - If I am understanding correctly I can purchase a Lage .22 kit
for $495 and have full auto .22 fun.

What are the drawbacks to the m11? What is the difference between Cobray and SWD? Will the lage conversion fit either?

Lastly, what is the current fair value of a M11? I see some closer to 3k and some at 4k+ and at this point I do not know enough to distinguish the differences.

Thanks
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Old May 6, 2012, 05:11 PM   #2
Capybara
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One thing to keep in mind is that the perceived value of transferable weapons is all based upon availability. Depending on who wins the next election, who comes to greater power in Congress, who is elected to the Supreme Court, etc. that value of your NFA investment could go from high to non-existent or you could lose your investment if the forces that be decide to ban transferable NFA weapons. Probably won't happen, but since you are talking investment and not just shooting pleasure, this is something you have to weigh in your decision.

I would suggest going to a local range and renting one and shooting it before investing thousands of dollars. FWIW, I think that an MG would be much more fun and entertaining than an AOW, AOW's are cool and fun to look at but frankly, they are not that fun to shoot, they are loud, they kick a lot and have quite a concussion/blast from the short barrel. I think that they are a much more effective HD weapon than a machine gun but if you mainly want something to take to the range, the Mac will be much more fun. The .22 kit seems like an economical way to go full auto.

I have shot a Mac and I own an Uzi. FWIW also, Macs are generally considered a "bullet hose" although the slow fire uppers mitigate some of this, versus the Uzi carbine is easier to be accurate with, better (obviously) to shoot semi-auto with, etc. But a FA Uzi costs about twice of what a Mac costs.

Have you checked out the Mac board over at www.uzitalk.com ? If not, I would suggest talking with Mac owners over there, the Macs are popular and there are ton of mods for them. You just need to decide if it is the right MG for you.
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Old May 6, 2012, 09:22 PM   #3
David Hineline
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The M11 is a good choice but it only does a couple things,

The M16 platform can do .22lr mag and belt fed, many caliber conversions, .226 belt fed. Only for extra money.

The M11 is the way to go.

The M16 and accy. is like a toilet that never stops flushing $100 bills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G38v2IBobdA
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Old May 7, 2012, 06:44 AM   #4
jclayto
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Very informative responses everyone, thanks! I had not found the uzitalk forum before and it looks to be a good source of information as well.

The mac is most attractive to me as a inexpensive option to own a .22lr smg. I doubt that it will see much use in it's stock 9mm configuration. I do think I will try to find one to rent before purchasing.

Are there any other options I am missing in the 3-4k range that would offer the ability to convert to .22lr? Personally I had always thought a Reising would be my first purchase but even as a reloader I think feeding it would quickly become expensive

Thanks everyone for the advice
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Old May 7, 2012, 10:24 AM   #5
Capybara
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If I was buying my first MG, I would probably buy an M11 as it is the cheapest, highly modifiable, relatively reliable gun that will do what you want. The Uzi is much nicer but I don't know if I could ever justify spending $7k to $8k for a toy whereas under $4k seems more economically palatable.

The only thing that bugs me is that it's cosmetics are between a brick and a shoebox with a short barrel sticking out, it is just a box. I like the looks of the Uzi much better and it's history is much more interesting. Back in the day, if I am not mistaken, you could buy a Mac for a few hundred dollars. Even back in the day, Uzis were never at bargain basement prices.

YMMV.
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Old May 7, 2012, 11:33 AM   #6
CCCLVII
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Welcome to a whole new world of shooting! NFA guns are very different.
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Old May 7, 2012, 11:47 AM   #7
jclayto
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I am very excited. Honestly, when I decided to set up a trust I thought at most I might put an AOW in it first, maybe build that SBR AR I've always wanted, and maybe pick up a suppressor down the road. I have always wanted a full auto weapon and always enjoyed the past opportunities of firing one but never thought my chief financial officer (aka, wife) would ever approve one

On that note, I don't think I'll be able to get much more than the cost of a m11 by her without needing to take another visit to the Coach factory outlet
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Old May 8, 2012, 08:00 AM   #8
Skans
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Quote:
For the trust I will be naming my wife and myself as co-trustees so that she would be able to use the items without me present. I intend to name future children as successors for the items. In the even of our death I understand that our children would become owners of the items without need of paying a separate transfer tax correct? If our children are only successors, do they become authorized users after our death? I guess the real question is I am a little blurry on the difference between authorized user or co-trustee as I have heard it referred to versus successor?
You really can't set up a trust to name only people who do not yet exist as the only beneficiaries. You will need to address this.

If your children are named as beneficiaries, they can either have the trust sell the NFA items and distribute the proceeds or the NFA items will transfer to them individually on a Form 5, tax free. You might want to print a copy of BATFE Form 5 to see what would be involved in that transfer. I think it would be very difficult to leave one NFA item to multiple people, but there might be some work-around for that which I am not aware of.

I believe that in NFA trusts the Trustees are generally the authorized users. (I have a conceptual beef about this because Trustees are typically not permitted under the law to "use" assets that depreciate and wear out from use - that really makes them beneficiaries, which if BATFE ever catches on, would void the NFA Trust - they can't be that stupid, just willing to turn a blind eye to this for now).
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Old May 8, 2012, 09:08 AM   #9
jclayto
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Thanks Skans, I definitely have some confusion with how to properly setup the trust. The attorney we are using seems to be very knowledgeable in nfa law so hopefully he can help me understand a little better.

I appreciate every ones input!
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Old May 9, 2012, 01:24 PM   #10
Capybara
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Is your attorney a local one or out of state? Just curious, I was hooked up with David Goldman in Florida.
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Old May 9, 2012, 02:33 PM   #11
mingheemouse
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Skans is rightly concerned about the unborn successor trustee issue, but your attorney should be easily able to sort that out with you, as it is based on your state's trust laws.

As for the authorized users, at the recent National Firearms Law Seminar held at the St. Louis NRA Convention, William J. Ryan, Esq. from the BATFE Office of the Chief Counsel gave the lecture on NFA Trusts. He clarified the BATFE's position on possession of NFA items by saying that the Trustees are the ones allowed to be in possession. He said:
"The person named as the trustee would be the lawful possessor of the NFA firearms. Clearly the piece of paper itself can't possess it, someone needs to possess it, and that would be the trustee."
He went on to say that the beneficiaries have a future interest, and do not have present possessory rights unless your state law dictates otherwise. State law controls in these matters.

Ask your attorney about any problems in the area of constructive possession when people not named as trustees have access to the safe where the items are stored. When the future kids become old enough to have the combination, this may need to be addressed.
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Old May 9, 2012, 08:47 PM   #12
jclayto
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Join Date: February 14, 2005
Location: Anderson, SC
Posts: 550
Thank you everyone for helping me define some questions that I will ask the attorney. I am using a local lawyer that came recommended by both dealers in my area. I am really excited about this and hoping that I can find a reasonable deal on a gun soon. I plan to try to rent one this weekend just to be 100% sure.

Last edited by jclayto; May 10, 2012 at 06:56 AM.
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Old May 11, 2012, 05:50 PM   #13
jimacp
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I would look for a SWD m11/9 and get the Lage MAX-11 slow fire upper and Lage MAX .22 conversion. The Lage uppers really do make the lowly M11/9 one of the nicest subguns out there, cost is relatively reasonable, and they are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot! Its great to be able to shoot either 9mm or .22 fully auto out of the same gun. The Lage with a decent red dot scope makes the subgun highly accurate.. I guarantee you will like it.
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