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Old May 3, 2012, 11:55 PM   #1
baiwan
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Shooting groups

I have a Winchester M94 30-30 Trapper with a 16" barrel.
I am trying to zero a Redfield 2-7 x 33 scope with Federal Classic SP FN
amo, and was not satisfied with the results at 100 meters.
Should I try other amo to get a 2" group?
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Old May 4, 2012, 11:45 AM   #2
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Yes

Could be a scope issue too. Hard to say. Some guns don't like some ammo though.

What kind of rest are you using?
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Old May 4, 2012, 11:54 AM   #3
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an what kind of ammo you using?
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Old May 4, 2012, 12:09 PM   #4
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There are LOTS of 30-30 lever-actions (both Marlin 336 and Win '94) that will never see a 2" group with any ammo.
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Old May 4, 2012, 12:23 PM   #5
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Agree with doyle. My guess is 4" would be acceptable to most people.
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Old May 4, 2012, 12:41 PM   #6
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You can try all sorts of thing but I'll toss my hat in with the previous 2 posters. Some lever guns shoot great outta the box, had a '94 trapper that would shoot 1.25" groups WITH RELOADS. On the other hand some just won't shoot nearly that good without substantial work, had another '94 that fit in that group too.

I wouldn't give up on it and I'd try every ammo you can get your hands on but you're gonna be hard pressed to find factory fodder that will shoot 2".

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Old May 4, 2012, 08:32 PM   #7
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I would wrap a lever action around a post of it wouldn't group any closer than 4" for five shots at 100 yards. I've had lots of Winchesters and Marlins that got under 2" consistently. Use a good solid rest, try some other ammo and don't forget to check your sighting equipment for looseness. I'd also check the crown of that muzzle for dings or burrs. Don't be bashful about trying another scope either, unless that particular scope has proven itself on another rifle.

Just FWIW my Winchesters have routinely preferred 150 grain Power Points by the same maker.
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Old May 4, 2012, 08:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
I would wrap a lever action around a post of it wouldn't group any closer than 4" for five shots at 100 yards.
I'd say so! I had a smooth-bore 18" barrel 11-87 that would do better than 4"!
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Old May 5, 2012, 12:14 AM   #9
baiwan
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Scope

The scope is brand new. I don't expect any trouble with it; I was told not to.
It's a Redfield Revolution 2-7 x 33, and it's the rhird one I am trying.
I have a Krico and it is factory tested for 1.2" groups at 100 meters.
Is there a figure for the Winchester?

Last edited by baiwan; May 5, 2012 at 12:39 AM.
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Old May 5, 2012, 08:50 AM   #10
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Some typical 94 Winchester, iron-sight stuff... keep in mind that some days I just shoot better than others.

Zeroing my son's old post 64



10 rounds at 100 yards from my old pre 64, from a poor improvised rest and with ammo it don't particularly like. (150 grain Federal) Not exemplary work on my part, either though.

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Old May 5, 2012, 12:01 PM   #11
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Shooting groups

Thanks for the replies,
I hope it won't be a scope issue, I think I should go back to the range and try by firing a couple of boxes amo more carefully.
I had big windage gaps, elevation was fine. The rifle rest was a simple one made it myself of timber and I used it for the first time. My first attempt was from the hood of the car although I am better from the car window.
I'll be careful and will go for 4" groups which is all I want.
I'll be back to tell.

Last edited by baiwan; May 5, 2012 at 12:11 PM.
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Old May 5, 2012, 05:05 PM   #12
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I'm curious about the barrel temp; how long do you wait between shots? I find my '94's do just fine for about three shots, then I need to let it cool down. I like your scope choice, it is the one I've chosen for my latest Marlin. I'd expect using good technique, rest, loads and sights you should see 3" groups without too much drama. I don't expect much more from a levergun but I don't spend the time developing a load for them that I do a bolt or single-shot rifle. I have leverguns that shoot better than most bolt guns, I just don't sweat it if a '94 isn't a tackdriver.
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Old May 6, 2012, 05:29 AM   #13
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Sarge, don't wrap that lever gun
around a post, give it to me
and I"ll pay shipping.
For God's sake 4" or 1.5"
at 100 yds, whatever you're
shooting at ain't gonna know the difference

ps: if you're trying to make a 200yd rifle
out of a woods gun,good luck
ron
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Old May 6, 2012, 08:32 AM   #14
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Actually the pre 64 is just as accurate (if not more) than the newer gun. What you're seeing is just the difference in ranges, targets, lighting, accurate vs so-so ammo and 3 vs 10 shot groups. And of course, the nut on the trigger. All these things can influence our opinion of whether a particular rifle and load are accurate; but using one or two range efforts as the yardstick of accuracy doesn't really tell us much.

200 yards with a lever action? Why, that's just crazy!
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Old May 6, 2012, 08:42 AM   #15
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With a two piece stock, the front handguard, magazine tube, and barrel band, all hanging off your barrel, a two inch group will be a statistical abnomaly.

If it shoots within 3 inches be happy. My Marlin 336 will hold four inches at 100 yards.

These are not bolt guns, they are not match rifles.
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Old May 13, 2012, 02:11 AM   #16
baiwan
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Another try

I gave it another try. In vain: the same bad results. It seems it's not the nut on the trigger; results were better with the first three shots, then the group got larger - around 7". I tried with different ammo, but all of it was older than 16 years. I am testing with fresh ammo next week and if it works I'll use the old one for fast shooting at cans at 50 meters.
Did anyone had experience with older ammo and accuracy.
I don't think anyone has kept cartridges for so long.
Thanks

Last edited by baiwan; May 13, 2012 at 02:16 AM.
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Old May 17, 2012, 10:10 AM   #17
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Could the problem be "bore-fouling"?
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Old May 17, 2012, 10:21 AM   #18
giaquir
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Sarge, 200 yds with a lever isn't crazy, but those
that can do such a thing are "shooters"
with intimate knowledge of their rifles and
great eyesight and control ,not the one box a year hunter.
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Old May 18, 2012, 01:20 PM   #19
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I have had some 94s come through the shop that were real shooters. One shot under 1" with a IMR 3031 and a 170 bullet. the 170 have about the same impact as a 150 coming out of the 30-30. but I have found the 170 will give a little better edge than the 150.
30-30 do foul up in the barrel with copper! The copper they use on 30-30 is a soft gliding S-2 type, where the fast 3000 fps bullets use am S4 type copper, much harder. The S2 is used to give the 30-30 good bullet expansion at lower speeds. Round nose bullets are sometime the cause for poor accuracy.
and like others have said the 94 lever is sorta like an M-14 with a lot of stuff hanging on the end of the rifle.
I knew one guy who took the fore end stock off of the rifle and it make a big difference. Some will shoot with a full tube and some want to loaded one at a time.
It's like a woman is fun to see what makes them chirp and growl. GOOD LUCK and just play with it, it's half the fun.

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Old June 2, 2012, 10:00 AM   #20
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IMR 30-31

I bought a jar of IMR 3031 powder to reload my remaining ammo.
I've read in a table to start with 26.5 Grains and go up but not to more than 35.5 Grains with 150 Grain bullets. Which is rather difficult; the firing rang is far away, most of the times it's crowded and fees are high.
I will consult the reloaders if I can load all with 31 Grains and expect good results - 4" groups at 100 meters.
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Old June 2, 2012, 10:27 AM   #21
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1) SCRUB the bore until it shines.

2) When shooting ANY levergun, keep in mind it was never designed to shoot "tight groups", since game animals don't normally stick around very long if the first shot's a miss.
Zero for the first shot from a cold bore, either clean or dirty, YMMV.

3) When zeroing any rifle that has a two-piece stock design & especially an underbarrel tube magazine, never allow any part of the rifle to touch anything other than a part of your body - only hands and/or shoulder, and certainly never a front or rear rest, or the benchtop.

Brace your body & hands, but hold the rifle very tightly down with the hands & hard into the shoulder while keeping the trigger finger free to fire the rifle.

Via con Dios.

.
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Old June 2, 2012, 04:59 PM   #22
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The Winchester M94 isn't known as a tack driver but sub 4" groups should be do-able, and maybe even some sub 2" groups or smaller possible once you get some things sorted out. I have to think it is your shooting technique that is the problem and probably not the rifle or the scope. Here is what gave me the hint:

Quote:
I had big windage gaps, elevation was fine. The rifle rest was a simple one made it myself of timber and I used it for the first time. My first attempt was from the hood of the car although I am better from the car window.
Most people shoot off of a bench and sand bags or padded shooting rest. Your timber rest doesn't sound like it is benifical to you and your ability to shoot good groups. Next the car window isn't the best shooting bench either, I've made some awesome shots from a truck window on coyotes and prairie dogs but they usually aren't that repeatable.

If you don't have a bench to shoot off of get down on the ground and shoot from a prone position with your rifle resting the forearm on sandbags or off of a hunting day pack with a coat or something inside to fill it up. Put a small sandbag under your butt stock to get support back there as well. Take your time and shoot your groups slowly a 5 shot group can take as long as 15-20 minutes to shoot.

Another thing you might check is your cheek weld. M94's really weren't made to be scoped by the stock desing. There is usually too much drop at the heel and it is hard to get your eye in repeatable alignment with the scope. You could always put one of those old style lace on leather risers on your comb to get your eye in better alignment with the scope.
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Old June 3, 2012, 08:01 PM   #23
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Quote:
I have a Winchester M94 30-30 Trapper with a 16" barrel.
I am trying to zero a Redfield 2-7 x 33 scope with Federal Classic SP FN
amo, and was not satisfied with the results at 100 meters.
Should I try other amo to get a 2" group?
Try different ammo from Winchester pp, Federal Powershok, Remington Cor-lokt. Try 150 and 170 gr bullets and see which weight it prefers.

As other have said 4" groups at 100 yards are satisfactory. My century old M94 shoots 1 1/4" groups at 50 meters.

If I shoot more than 3 shots without letting the barrel cool down, then the groups start to open up.

Some rifles shoot there best from a clean barrel, others shoot tighter groups from a fouled barrel. Experiment a bit and see what your rifle likes & dislikes.
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