The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 3, 2012, 10:36 PM   #1
dyl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 509
2 Hand grip VS Thin grips?

The question: Do very thin grips work against a good 2 hand hold?

It seems like there is a trend towards thinner grips in handguns lately. If not a trend - then that part of the market is being thoroughly explored.

It also seems like what I have learned about a particular style of 2 handed grip (more suited towards Weaver) would work against a consistent grip.

Here's what I mean.

The grip: is the modern 2 thumbs forward grip. Right hand high up on the grip, bore line directed back into the bones of the forearm. Left hand base of the thumb fills in the gap on the left side of the grip, thumb points forward.
Forwards and backwards pressure is supplied by the right hand and possibly some push-pull with the arms themselves. Left-to-Right sqeezing is done with the left hand.

The problem: On guns with slim grips that do not fill the hand, there is a gap between all the fingers and the right side of the stock/grip frame. Not just the index finger. I was taught to deliberately leave a gap between the index finger and the frame so that the frame is not pushed left when the trigger is pulled. But if all the fingers also have that gap, what does squeezing the support hand accomplish?

The pistol is pushed to the right into the gap (or the fingers of the shooting hand are pulled to the left) and the gap disappears but by the end of that shift your grip has changed and now the gun is no longer pointing in the same direction it was before the support hand squeezed.

That is - unless you don't apply much left-to-right squeezing by your off hand. Or unless you resist all sideways squeezing done by your support hand by extending or uncurling the fingers of the shooting hand to resist. But what would that accomplish towards gripping the gun?

Have you noticed a change in your technique to accommodate thin pistols?
dyl is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 01:50 PM   #2
Nakanokalronin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2006
Posts: 887
I use the same thumbs forward grip weather it be a full size 1911, Ultra Carry with thin grips, P238,LCR,P3AT,PF9, Beretta 92, P89, CZ82, etc and I don't have any problems with accuracy or pulling the gun to the right or left.

I do prefer a grip angle that has the sights in perfect alignment when brought up to eye level with no readjustment and I've found out that there are quite a few out there like a Beretta 92 and 1911 with flat MSH that seem like total opposites of each other. As a matter of fact, every gun I mentioned does this and then some....at least for me.
Nakanokalronin is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 02:52 PM   #3
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,372
I can't shoot with a "modern" high thumb or parallel thumb grip, but I don't think that matters for the purpose of this question. My view is that the support hand doesn't do any lateral pushing -- either left or right -- and should not be squeezing very hand hard. What the support hand should be doing is pulling back toward your body, while the strong hand is pushing the gun forward against the support hand.

I don't even understand your reference to "left to right squeezing is done with the left hand." WHAT left to right squeezing? There should not be any left to right anything, and most of the squeezing is done with the strong hand, to hold the gun steady.

Also, assuming that you are right-handed, I don't see how there can be a gap between the right hand and the right side of the grip. Any grip begins by holding your fingers and thumb out straight, forming a vee. The backstrap of the gun is then nestled into this vee so the barrel is parallel to the forearm. Then the three lower fingers (or just the middle and ring fingers if the grip is too short for the pinkie) are closed around the grip. The tips/ends of the fingers end up where they end up, but ... where does a gap on the right side of the grip come from?

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 5, 2012 at 09:32 PM. Reason: Typo -- "hard" not "hand"
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 04:19 PM   #4
dyl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 509
Just to clarify, I don't have accuracy problems if I take steps to accommodate this but I just notice this about thin grips.

In a pistol with thin grips, if I make a "V" with my dominant right hand/shooting hand and grip this way, the right side of the grip does not make contact with a lot of the palm surface of my shooting hand. It doesn't "fill the hand". There is a gap. This is in a pistol with thin grips mind you. My "V" isn't able to become a "U" to thus make contact all along the right grip panel. The only way this doesn't happen on a pistol with thin grips for me is if I come around on the right side of the grip to press the grip into the flat of my palm. But then that's not the "V" anymore - but rather a grip I see lots of Isosceles shooters use.

In a pistol with thicker (and generally rectangular cross section) my grip is filled and the front right corner of the grip tends to line up with the bend of my middle knuckle - and it's profitable to squeeze with my support hand.

Quote:
I don't even understand your reference to "left to right squeezing is done with the left hand." WHAT left to right squeezing? There should not be any left to right anything, and most of the squeezing is done with the strong hand, to hold the gun steady.
- Here is what I mean by left to right squeezing. Not necessarily the direction as a sequence "I'm going to push the pistol from left to right" but I would call pulling the trigger back towards yourself as squeezing front-to-rear. And I would call the push-pull interaction of the two arms as front-to-rear pressure. What do you call it when you clap your hands? Horizontal squeezing? Lateral pressure? A force from the left side to right while simultaneously applying a force from the right side to the left which meet in the middle. I apologize for not having a better way to say it.

- When I first started learning how to shoot semi-autos, someone taught me that the support hand is to provide lateral squeezing pressure. It cannot provide front - to - rear pressure on it's own since there is no thumb wrapped around the back. It can merely close like a clamshell and also provide resistance through a push-pull relationship between the left and right arms. The right hand would provide the front - to - rear pressure.

So it seems you don't tend to try squeeze much with the support hand?
- What's all this about some people saying the majority of pressure should be done with your support hand - to free up the strong hand for controlled trigger manipulation?

You know what, I think a lot of the contradictions I'm seeing and experiencing are the difference between Weaver and Isosceles grips being mixed together.
dyl is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 09:39 PM   #5
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 6,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyl
In a pistol with thin grips, if I make a "V" with my dominant right hand/shooting hand and grip this way, the right side of the grip does not make contact with a lot of the palm surface of my shooting hand. It doesn't "fill the hand". There is a gap. This is in a pistol with thin grips mind you. My "V" isn't able to become a "U" to thus make contact all along the right grip panel. The only way this doesn't happen on a pistol with thin grips for me is if I come around on the right side of the grip to press the grip into the flat of my palm. But then that's not the "V" anymore - but rather a grip I see lots of Isosceles shooters use.
???

I'm sorry, maybe senility has overtaken me. I'm not making any sense at all out of what you wrote. "Grip" is how the hand holds the pistol. Weaver, Isosceles, etc. are not grips, they are stances. The grip in an isosceles stance is not fundamentally different from the grip in a Weaver stance. You make the vee with your strong hand. You jam the gun back into the vee and wrap your fingers around the grip as if you were going to shoot one-handed. There CANNOT be a gap (space) between your hand and the strong side grip panel.

The vee is not formed with the palm of the right hand -- the vee is between the thumb and the fingers, as you would look down on your grip from above.

Once you have your one-hand grip firmly established, then you overlay the support hand, fitting it in/on wherever it fits best. It sounds to me like you are too focused on having the support hand contact the left grip, which results in not leaving anywhere for the fingers of the right hand as they wrap around the front strap.

What am I missing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyl
- When I first started learning how to shoot semi-autos, someone taught me that the support hand is to provide lateral squeezing pressure. It cannot provide front - to - rear pressure on it's own since there is no thumb wrapped around the back. It can merely close like a clamshell and also provide resistance through a push-pull relationship between the left and right arms. The right hand would provide the front - to - rear pressure.
The right hand cannot provide the front-rear pressure. That's like trying to clap with one hand. The right (strong) hand pushes the gun forward. The weak/support hand pulls back. There is no lateral pressure either way. When fired, the gun doesn't recoil sideways (other than perhaps a bit of twist), so there's no need or reason to be pushing or pulling left-to-right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyl
So it seems you don't tend to try squeeze much with the support hand?
Squeeze? Nope. Just enough to keep the support hand firmly in place while pulling back against the push of the strong hand. I characterize it as "pulling," not "squeezing."

Quote:
Originally Posted by dyl
- What's all this about some people saying the majority of pressure should be done with your support hand - to free up the strong hand for controlled trigger manipulation?
I don't know -- I have never heard that. I HAVE heard instructors such as Mas Ayoob say that we should grip the firearm as firmly as possible, just short of the point where muscle tremors (shaking) sets in. Freeing up the trigger finger is a mental issue. You should be able to grip the gun firmly with the last three (or two of the last three) fingers and move the trigger finger independently. If you can't do that -- buy a Grip-Master and use it until you CAN manipulate the trigger finger independently of the other digits.




Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 5, 2012 at 09:55 PM.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 10:21 PM   #6
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,698
As Aguila Blanca points out, one grips the pistol with his dominant hand as if he is going to shoot one handed. The point of using thin grips (and/or a short trigger) is to better allow someone with a small hand or shorter trigger reach to get a good, one handed shooting grip.

Being able to shoot well and effective one handed is the starting point. It needs to be the starting point, because one might need to use his gun and have only one hand available. If he can't managed the gun with one hand, he would have some problems.

Once one has picked or set up a pistol so that he can properly and effectively fire it with one hand he can then work on using his non-dominant hand as a support hand. The primary purpose of a two handed grip, together with an appropriate stance, is recoil management.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 11:26 PM   #7
peacefulgary
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 524
Thinner grips are usually intended to make a given handgun easier to conceal and less bulky.

very seldom do thinner grips actually improve on accuracy or comfort when shooting.
peacefulgary is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.07717 seconds with 9 queries