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Old May 4, 2012, 10:35 AM   #26
wingman
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Good trigger makes a world of difference varies from gun to gun but there are some super bad triggers on AR's, a consistent trigger is most important IMO, not saying that is the entire problem but certainly one variable.
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Old May 4, 2012, 12:42 PM   #27
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One more thought,for me,my old eyes have gone a mite wobbly.I need all the help I can get.
The round ,black bull with black scope crosshairs does not give me as precise of aiming point as some other targets.I have become partial to the orange diamonds.The crosshairs stand out sharply on the orange background and the diamond points are a precise reference.
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Old May 4, 2012, 08:48 PM   #28
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I'll 'fess up ...... I use a 20x setting on the scope at 100yds. so I can see the bullet holes; putting the cross hairs on the center of the bullseye for the first cold-barrel shot, then on the first bullet hole for subsequent shots to get the best groupings. As stated in previous posts, and by Baseball Yogi, this stuff is 90% mental.
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Old May 4, 2012, 09:17 PM   #29
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Everyone has mentioned the shooter's variable and somewhat the rifle (cycling).

I'd like to address the ammo. Since you reload, have you used different bullets or different charge? You might not have found your sweet spot yet.
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Old May 5, 2012, 08:29 AM   #30
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Based on the original post:
Quote:
I am using a Caldwell rest and shooting from a bench.
I'm making the assumption that the shooter is 95% removed from the equation as long as the rest is being used correctly.

Question for the OP, How exactly are you using the Calwell & how are you handling the rifle?

Not being a wiseacre, but if the shooter is removed from the equation then we need to look elsewhere, if not we need to look at the shooter & his technique as well.
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Old May 5, 2012, 05:55 PM   #31
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The best groups I shoot are when I shoot all three (or five) shots first and THEN worry about where they went. By doing that you are thinking about the technique on each shot and squeezing the trigger. I've also found if you have your trigger set too light (this is in MY case) I can't feel the squeeze and you get into the "tapping" the trigger thing instead of just aiming while squeezing. I don't like a trigger lighter then 3 lbs. Even for bench rest shooting.

Quote:
One more thought,for me,my old eyes have gone a mite wobbly.I need all the help I can get.
The round ,black bull with black scope crosshairs does not give me as precise of aiming point as some other targets.I have become partial to the orange diamonds.The crosshairs stand out sharply on the orange background and the diamond points are a precise reference.

HiBC
Totally agree with this also. Found the exact same thing works for me.
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Old May 7, 2012, 12:16 PM   #32
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Just a thought that worked on me; take your buddy with you. Have him load each shell, individualy, before you shoot. He puts in a shell, you shoot it, he puts in a shell you shoot it, you dont get to see what he puts in it! One of them is going to be an empty shell, and he's going to watch your reaction when there is only a click, not a bang! It could be the 2nd, or 4th,or 5th shot, you dont know!
You might be surprised at what your doing!

Just a thought!
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Old May 7, 2012, 03:30 PM   #33
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Regarding shooting all before checking and shoot & check schools of thought.
It seems that if you're doing what we called "grouping" (never mind the score, get a smallest possible group size) you'd keep a constant aim & wait for identical conditions before firing identically, but shooting for "application" (trying to get 'em all in the X-ring) you'd correct individually for best results.
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Old May 7, 2012, 03:58 PM   #34
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Sight alignment

Trigger pull

Position, position, position.

Those are the top ones you have to practice on for consistency.
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Old May 7, 2012, 04:55 PM   #35
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I will take all this good advice to the range. Promise to post pictures. Thanks.
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Old May 9, 2012, 08:31 AM   #36
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Perhaps your rounds need a bit of group counselling or at least introducing them to each other before expecting them to socialize. You probably take them to the range in a box with separators and a cover that keeps them in the dark, then you put them in the rifle one at a time.

For bullets to feel part of a group, they need to be formally introduced on the shooting bench, then rolled around together in your hands until they're comfortable and properly introduced to each other and want to be together on target. Touching bullet noses together in a group hug really helps the process of breaking the ice.

When you shoot a group, fire fairly fast, so the bullets can feel the warm tunnel of air left by it's friend, allowing it to "sniff" it's way to a tight group.

If groups don't improve by introduction and group hugs, further counseling may be required. If that fails, the only alternative is time-outs. Beating is not an option, as it may be hazardous to your health.

(Hope this little bit of humor helps. You got some really good advice by others, now put it to use and relax when you shoot. Like s-x, it's more enjoyable that way.)
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Last edited by Picher; May 9, 2012 at 11:34 AM.
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Old May 9, 2012, 10:43 AM   #37
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Wow, that's like, so zen, like!
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Old May 9, 2012, 09:51 PM   #38
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Shoot the 5 shot groups and as suggested shoot 5 one shot groups w/ consistancy from shot to shot.

Then develope a habit of calling the shot. How did it feel/look when you squeezed the bang switch? If it was off one way or so you should know. Then it aint a surprise and that shot can be discounted/disregarded depending on call.
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Old May 10, 2012, 10:04 PM   #39
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I shot better today! Thanks for the help guys!

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Old May 11, 2012, 06:53 AM   #40
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Congrats! What did you change?
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Old May 11, 2012, 08:44 AM   #41
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Very nice. I like that you actually wrote "YEAH!" next to the tighter groups. What did you find helped the most?
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Old May 11, 2012, 09:17 AM   #42
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I went to the range alone. I then concentrated on making one shot at a time and did not even look at the target untill i had fired all four 5 shot groups.

After shooting the first group, I noticed that ny elevation turet was not at zero, so that explains the group 1 being so high. The wind was gusting pretty bad today which explains the POI shifting from group to group. But other than that, I was pretty happy.

I shot my .220 Swift also and got some ok groups. Here is that target:

Not quite as tight as the AR15, but not to bad. Two under 1".

The bad thing is, at 200 yrds, I couldn't get a group at all with the AR. I am thinking the wind was just gusting too much by that point.
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Old May 11, 2012, 03:50 PM   #43
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Those groups aren't totally bad. What range were the first targets shot at? And Kraigwy has the straight dope, beware of some of these idiots as they don't have a clue.
Flyers are caused by many variables, and it's the student,(cause we are all students) that spends the most VALUABLE time correcting these variables. That first set of targets aren't really that bad per say, and if your shooting these groups at 200 yds, then they're pretty damn good man. anyway thats my buckfitty,,, good shooting dude!
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Old May 11, 2012, 04:37 PM   #44
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You are shooting sub-moa.That is pretty good.

Now,realize,from the perfect center of the target,there is a sum total of less than 1/2 moa to find gains.What?

A hound dog can only run 1/2 way into the woods,after that,he is running out.Radius versus diameter.You have the radius to work with.

That 1/2 moa is divided up.

Some is still shooter error.

Some is the barrel.I'm not knocking your DPMS,but I would not have the same expectations from it that I would have from a top line barrel from a custom barrel maker

Some is likely copper fouling,correctable with Bore -tec eliminator and a nylon brush.Use a good one piece rod and a bore guide.Not doing damage is important

Some is in the ammo.Your rifle may prefer a different bullet weight,or ogive or seating depth.You may get better results with a different powder or primer.

Some gains can be had from a basic brass prep,
Trimming squares the neck and makes them the same length.

Chamfer helps keep the bullet from being damaged in seating

Light deburr of the flash hole.Keeps the primer flamefrom being distorted.

Brush out the necks with a nylon bore brush,Clean is good,makes a more uniform bullet release.

BTW,I took those steps from Precision Shootings Guide to Reloading for High Power competition,the steps to make "pretty good" ammo.

They also describe using an O-ring under the die lock ring or more concentric ammo.

OK,now,remember,to a degree,each of these steps may give you some results in reducing that less than 1/2 moa radius ,that is how far each individual shot varied from center.

You may pick up 1/16 in here,1/8 in there,etc,but that is where you are.

You can do as much of that as you like,

But some might say a next step would be getting that "How to shoot" book from CMP that Mr kraigwy recomends,and a shooting sling,and working with prone,sitting,etc.

Oh,you get extra bonus points for the wind!!Good job!You made improvement
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Old May 11, 2012, 05:01 PM   #45
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Hooligan, These targets are all 100yrds. I didn't post any from 200 because they were terrible. I started at 100 with both the .223 and the .220 Swift (1:00pm) yesterday. By the time (3:00pm) I got to the 200 yrd range, the wind was blowing the .223 everywhere! The Swift did a bit better. I can post those targets tonight.

Thanks for the input HiBC.

I do think that the DPMS trigger is pretty stiff, I may get a different one and see what happens. Even though it is a DPMS, I think it shoots better than I do. I need to master it before I can justify spending more money on a "custom" barrel!
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Old May 11, 2012, 06:33 PM   #46
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I recall Dean Grennell refering to "1st round fliers" in semiautomatic pistols, I forget how he resolved it, perusing some other boards I see no consensus on either the cause or the cure. I would try firing a group with each round single loaded, though you seem to have resolved some of it on your own. Happy shooting.
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Old May 11, 2012, 09:11 PM   #47
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I did not intend to suggest you need a different barrel.Not at all.
I meant to suggest realistic expectations from a moderately priced production barrel.That includes the sort of barrel you would get on a tac/varmint heavy barrel bolt rifle from the major mfgrs.

IMO,on the bench you have proved the rifle is capable of making you look good.Most all the time it is less than 1/2 in from the point of aim at 100 yds.
Most of the time,less than 3/8 in.

Shooting smaller groups is fun,and with just a little ammo tickling you will get some improvement.

IMO,now you know the rifle can shoot if it is resting on sandbags on a bench,you can work on not needing the bench.Anybody with enough money can buy an accurate rifle,but it won't make them a good shot.

It has been mentioned on this forum,the famous Whitefeather,Carlos Hathcock,got his business done with a rifle that was not anywhere close to being as accurate as the rifle you have.

What is in short supply..and to be valued,and respected,are gentlemen like kraigwy who have the skill and experience to pick up an old Garand battle rifle,sit down on their butt and knock the 10 ring out of a target with Marksmanship,not equiptment.

What is even better,he is willing to pass it on.

I missed a vintage battle rifle clinic he offered last year.Maybe I will get a second chance.

On your trigger,if it is a military grade poor trigger,IMO,the best value is a Rock River National Match 2 stage for about $120.

It is plenty good enough trigger to shoot very well.

Last edited by HiBC; May 11, 2012 at 09:25 PM.
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Old May 11, 2012, 11:29 PM   #48
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Thank you, Sir.

I may have just that chance to attend one of Kraig's clinics this summer.
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Old May 12, 2012, 04:59 PM   #49
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Those are still fine for 100 yds, Also practice and tweaking the handload, (one part or another) will tighten those suckers up.
If your intention is to hunt with that rifle, it will be a fine coyote/ varmit rifle, it shoots plenty fine for that.
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Old May 15, 2012, 08:14 AM   #50
Picher
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Okay, now we're getting serious about shooting groups.

The next thing you need to do is to build or buy some wind flags. They can be as simple as a L shaped piece of coat hanger or brazing rod with a loop on the end, placed in a slightly larger drill hole in a stick. The rod swivels around, so the flagging doesn't wrap itself around the rod. I've made some pretty nice ones out of plastic signboard with coathanger rods, stuck in music stands with drilled bolts in the top.

Depending on the range and surrounding features, you may need four or more wind flags at distances of: 10 yards from your bench, 60 yards, 120 yards, and 170 yards. Any closer to the target than that won't make much difference in bullet flight. Pay the greatest attention to the closest flags because small changes in wind at the beginning make the greatest change in impact location.

The trick to shooting good groups using wind flags is to try shooting each shot with the flags in as close to the same position for each. If they move as a shot is fired, don't count that shot, or realize why it may be out of the group. Find one or two prevailing wind conditions and see where rounds impact from those conditions. If a condition looks different, try a sighter on another bull, rather than spoiling your group.

Hope this very basic wind information helps you shrink your groups. If you want to see what professionally-made wind flags look like, just Google "Wind Flags".
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