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Old May 3, 2012, 09:46 AM   #26
BlueTrain
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Well, actually things can still get done quickly today, if there is a reason for it. That isn't to say that all the computers and electronics are the reason either. I suspect that sometimes things might work a little better if the designers spent a little more time on the shop floor.

I also doubt that neither users nor designers in the first ten years of the last century had the fascination with power and velocity that we do today. Supposedly Browning's favorite pistol was a .32 automatic; one of his own.

I also think that today's .40 S&W auto and 10mm owe nothing to the old .41 Colt cartridge. As a matter of fact, supposedly it was developed when someone was tinkering around with some leftover .38-40 bullets and came up with the .41 Action Express. But even that's practically ancient history now.
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Old May 3, 2012, 10:39 AM   #27
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i never understood why they claim to be "reproducing" the ballistics of these old cartridges.. for example, .45acp today is a hell of a lot more effective than .45LC was then... but i guess back in 19-oh-whatever, it may have been closer...

but i do a lot of design and engineering work, and i can safely say if i didnt have 3D solid modeling software it would take me much, much, much longer to perfect a design... because there are designs you make, and you only realize problems after the parts are made and assembled...

for me with this software, i just click on the parts with a problem, edit a feature, and im done literally in seconds, back then the parts would have been manufactured, assembled, problems noted, changed made, new parts created to try again....

also, prior to actually prototyping something, i can determine what the material of a part is and using specifications we already know about these materials such as their tensile strength, yield strength, melting point, conductivity, etc, i can simulate pressure or heat on a part and get a much better idea of whatll happen when this product is used, and find weaknesses before the components are ever made

at this point, im not sure i would ever have the patience, or finances to design something the way they did then
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Old May 3, 2012, 11:26 AM   #28
Jim Watson
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Quote:
.45acp today is a hell of a lot more effective than .45LC was then... but i guess back in 19-oh-whatever, it may have been closer...
Depends on what you call .45 ACP. Depends on what you call "effective."

If you are in the high velocity camp, then you certainly consider a 165 grain .45 at 1250 fps to be an advancement. But that is not in the military supply system, the few .45 users in the service seem to get by pretty well with a 230 at 850, just as they did in WW I.

The original .45 Colt would get a 250 grain soft lead bullet over 900 fps in the 7.5" SAA. Meant to drop a horse if you could not hit the rider.


Oh, yeah, could you design, prototype, produce, and install a shift key.
Capitalization of the appropriate words would make your stuff more readable.
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Old May 3, 2012, 01:21 PM   #29
Mike Irwin
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".45acp today is a hell of a lot more effective than .45LC was then..."

Well, considering that TODAY'S .45 ACP usually uses expanding bullets, which were hardly around back then, yes, that's a given.

But remember, too, that today's .45 Colt can, and does, take advantage of expanding bullets.

It also can handle a much heavier bullet, and be loaded to FAR higher velocities.

I'd dare say that today's .45 Colt could be considered to be more effective than the .45 ACP of any era.
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Old May 3, 2012, 03:58 PM   #30
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I guess no one believes it but I have read that the better .45 ACP factory loads are better than any .45 Colt (or .44 Special) loads. But you certainly have to have faith in your ammunition.

On the other hand, I've heard claims of even higher velocities from a 7 1/2" Colt SAA in .45 Colt. But you can't put your "modern .45 Colt" loads in one of them.
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Old May 3, 2012, 04:07 PM   #31
Jim Watson
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Buffalo Bore has some pretty "modern" loads for .45 Colt:

Standard Pressure Heavy 45 COLT - 225 gr. Barnes XPB 1000 fps
This load (item 3H) is “STANDARD PRESSURE” and is safe for use in ANY/ALL firearms chambered in 45 Colt and/or 454 Casull. The ”over-all-length” is 1.572 inch and is short enough to be fired in and fed through ANY/ALL 45 Colt firearms.
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Old May 3, 2012, 07:00 PM   #32
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yeah.. i would just go ahead and ignore those "modern" .45lc loads that are loaded to be as powerful as 44 magnums, and youre asking for a bad day if you use one in an SAA
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Old May 3, 2012, 08:50 PM   #33
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Pardon the thread drift, but I've found that max loads with 300-grain bullets in .45 Colt and .44 Magnum make pepper poppers fall much, much faster than .45 ACP with GI hardball. They make a flat steel target head off toward concave, too.
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Old May 3, 2012, 09:44 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason41987
...it wouldnt have been finished until much later.. browning and colt didnt sit down with a pencil and paper, draw it out and be done with it so quick, it would have taken years... and to say a gun company isnt always trying to find something that could win the next set of military trials is false...
Do you have any actual evidence to support your claim?

On the other hand, I know that Aguila Blanca has extensively studied the history of the development of the 1911 and is very well versed on the subject.
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Old May 4, 2012, 12:03 AM   #35
Mike Irwin
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Are your so poorly versed on the subject to think that the only guns chambered for the 45 Colt are 120 year old single actions?

I don't think anyone can really grasp the points you're trying to make because you're not grasping the points you're trying to make either. You're simply all over the map and your "facts" are often tenuously rooted in reality.

Why don't you go back to the library and do some more reading on the topic. There are some really good and accurate books out there that should be a available via intralibrary loan.
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Old May 4, 2012, 06:27 AM   #36
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Who you talking to?
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Old May 4, 2012, 02:42 PM   #37
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.45acp was supposed to approach the performance of the .45 Colt. I'd say they got close enough for government work.
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Old May 4, 2012, 02:52 PM   #38
Jim Watson
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It exceeds the performance of .45 Government (Schofield) and trades a lighter bullet at higher velocity for the 1909 New Service .45.
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Old May 4, 2012, 04:02 PM   #39
jason41987
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has a gun been made in the last 120 years to chamber .45lc?.. yeah, a few, such as ruger.. but at pressures far exceeding what an SAA can handle
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Old May 4, 2012, 05:36 PM   #40
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason41987
i never understood why they claim to be "reproducing" the ballistics of these old cartridges.. for example, .45acp today is a hell of a lot more effective than .45LC was then... but i guess back in 19-oh-whatever, it may have been closer...
You are still missing the point. The point is that the original .45 ACP cartridge was developed -- at the specific request of the Ordnance Department -- to replicate the external ballistics of the cartridge they were then using in the M1873 revolver. The cartridge they were using was not the .45 "Long" Colt but, as has been pointed out, the .45 "Short" Colt, or Schofield. The .45 "Long" Colt fired a 250-grain bullet. The slightly shorter .45 Schofield fired a 230-grain bullet. So that's where that came from.

GI spec hardball was originally a 234 grain JRN at 830 fps with a +/- 25 fps range...at 70 degrees at 27.5 feet from the muzzle. It was standardized with a 230 grain bullet...when and why is unknown...with the same criteria. If you run today's generic 230-grain FMJ ammo (such as Winchester USA, Remington UMC, Federal American Eagle, etc.) through a chronograph, the results will be right around those numbers. So 100 years later, nothing has changed. But other loadings have been added.

You are comparing apples to turnips when you start discussing modern +P loadings in comparison to the original .45 (black powder) revolver loads around which the .45 ACP was developed. In fact, the military .45 ACP cartridge does exactly what it was asked to do: it replicates the ballistics of the .45 caliber revolver round it replaced.

You are also overlooking that the "old" .45 revolvers were firing black powder loads. Virtually any "modern," smokeless powder commercial loading exceeds the internal and external ballistics of the original .45 Colt cartridge. This is why there is a specialty market in so-called "cowboy" loads for the .45 Colt cartridge -- the "cowboy" loads are lighter in order to reduce the risk of overstressing an historical SAA revolver. The "cowboy" loads more close approximate the ballistics of the original, black powder cartridges.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 4, 2012 at 05:44 PM.
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Old May 4, 2012, 06:53 PM   #41
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Quote:
The point is that the original .45 ACP cartridge was developed -- at the specific request of the Ordnance Department -- to replicate the external ballistics of the cartridge they were then using in the M1873 revolver. The cartridge they were using was not the .45 "Long" Colt but, as has been pointed out, the .45 "Short" Colt, or Schofield.
That's the first time I've heard that the .45acp was supposed to mimic the Schofield. I guess it is a better fit.
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Old May 4, 2012, 07:42 PM   #42
Aguila Blanca
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Updated U.S. military specs for the .45 ACP cartridge, as of 1994. Not that this one says it is for both submachine guns and pistols. I believe the velocity as of 1994 was a bit higher in order to make it more effective out of sub guns. I don't believe the velocity was this high when the cartridge was adopted.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzcook
That's the first time I've heard that the .45acp was supposed to mimic the Schofield. I guess it is a better fit.
I'm not 100 percent certain on that. Wikipedia (the infallible) suggests that --

Quote:
The .45 Schofield cartridge was shorter than the .45 Long Colt. It could be used in both the Schofield and the Colt 45 Peacemaker, but the .45 Long Colt was too long to use in the Schofield. As a result, by the 1880s the army finally standardized on a .45 cartridge designed to fire in both revolvers, the M1887 Military Ball Cartridge. The M1887 was made at Frankford Arsenal, and was issued only to the military. It had a shortened case and reduced rim; as it was short enough to fit the Schofield, and its rim was not needed for the rod-ejector Single Action Army, the M1887 would fire and eject from both revolvers.
-- however, they also say the velocity with a 230-grain bullet was only 750 fps, which is almost 100 fps slower than the spec for the .45 ACP. But -- the .45 Colt was either a 250-grain or 255-grain bullet, so ...

Plus, after 1887, the military's Frankford Arsenal was making ONLY the .45 Schofield, so that's what would have gone with the guns when they were reactivated for use in the Philippines. And that's what the Ordnance Department's caliber tests would have used for comparisons against the .38.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; May 4, 2012 at 08:00 PM.
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Old May 4, 2012, 09:03 PM   #43
Jim Watson
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The big impressive 1909 Colt New Service and its specific ammunition, a .45 "long" Colt with enlarged rim for simultaneous ejection, was no more powerful. Loads were in the 700 - 750 fps range using Bullseye or RSQ smokeless.

The other face of the new overloaded ammo in old guns coin is that it would not be smart to pound your mild steel WW I 1911 with fresh Ranger T +P, either.
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