The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 3, 2012, 07:59 PM   #51
Chris_B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2007
Posts: 2,841
The Garand monicker reminds me of a discussion re: the scene in Saving Private Ryan when the trooper calls P-51s 'tank busters' that I've had with other collectors.

The term makes them rankle, even when I cite squadrons of the 8th AF that flew P-51s in exactly that role, on D-Day. To some, the term was correct. To others it was not. In the war and after. Just like the term "Garand'- some GIs used it, some didn't. Personally since I didn't know John Garand, and the name of the rifle is the M1 rifle, I usually call it a ham and swiss on rye since it's instantly recognizable anyway
Chris_B is offline  
Old May 3, 2012, 11:32 PM   #52
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 5,229
Quote:
Don't feel bad, the next generation of kiddoes will refer to the M16 as the "Stoner" at some point in our future...
LOL!! The next generation of kids ARE "stoners."
gyvel is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 10:58 AM   #53
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
Hi, Chris B.

I may not have been clear, but I meant to say the opposite - the M1 was designed to load the first round without the operator hitting the op ord handle. I don't know if clip tension might have been increased at some point, perhaps to insure against rounds coming loose in shipping.

I am also looking forward to hearing from all the folks who call the M1 carbine a "Williams".

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 12:04 PM   #54
springer99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2008
Posts: 146
There I was, all alone and hunkered in my parka, when the whole squad started towards me at a run. I raised my "Williams" and...................

naw, just dont' sound like I remember it, sorry James.
springer99 is offline  
Old May 4, 2012, 04:02 PM   #55
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
But if it was an M2 Williams, you could get them all.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 12:42 AM   #56
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 5,229
To be honest, there is an awful lot of Thomas C. Johnson in the M1 Carbine, so it would be more approproate to say: "There I was, all alone and hunkered in my parka, when the whole squad started towards me at a run. I pulled out my "Johnson" and..................."
gyvel is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 01:03 AM   #57
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
Once upon a time I had the stock off my M1 and the bolt open. I was holding it in my left hand balancing it, sitting in a chair. I leaned down to the right and reached for a brush, the Garand tilted toward the barrel end and the follower touched my thumb, the bolt slammed forward and I had the whole thing hanging off the end of my thumb. So I'm gonna vote fact. In the process of handling one with the bolt back, its possible to close the bolt on a finger, or thumb in several different ways. So care and caution should be used. Its probably not gonna cut your thumb off, but it hurts.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old May 5, 2012, 02:32 AM   #58
Sport45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Too close to Houston
Posts: 4,087
Quote:
I leaned down to the right and reached for a brush, the Garand tilted toward the barrel end and the follower touched my thumb, the bolt slammed forward and I had the whole thing hanging off the end of my thumb.
Sounds like the bolt wasn't locked back, but just hung up on the follower. I'll bet it looked something like Chris_B's photo.

I've never had a M1 close while my thumb was pressing on the top round in the clip.

I do make sure the bolt is locked all the way back before sticking my fingers in there to clean the chamber or anything before firing.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.
Sport45 is offline  
Old May 6, 2012, 03:07 PM   #59
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,133
Anyone notice in this WWII training video that General Douglas MacArthur himself called it "the Garand rifle", and the video itself says it is commonly known as the Garand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo0NL...ature=youtu.be
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old May 6, 2012, 03:34 PM   #60
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
OK, I am a believer and all the soldiers and Marines, including WWII vets, I heard call it an M1 were figments of my imagination.

Yes, in the early days of the Garand-Springfield dispute and later in Garand-Johnson controversy, the rifle was commonly called a "Garand" in the popular press as well as in the few gun and hunting magazines that wrote about it. Some people did continue to call it that, but the official manuals, the instructors and the common troops called it what they had been trained to call it, the M1 rifle. The troops called it the M1 to the end of its service life when it was replaced by the M14 ("Son of Garand", maybe) and the "Stoner", aka the M16.

When the CMP began selling those rifles, they had a manual prepared that called it the M1 Garand. I don't know if that resurrected the name, or if it is just a common trend of the Mall Ninjas to name guns (I saw "Glockie" the other day), but the name Garand ("Garry" in one post) has come back in vogue and is used by many of those who run around in cammies and pretend to be veterans of some war or another.

My opinion of the man himself is that he was a genius and that his rifle was what was needed to help the U.S. win over the Axis powers; I have nothing but the highest regard for him, though I only met him one time for a few minutes. So I do not mean to insult his memory by saying that his name was not commonly applied to the rifle he invented. But it wasn't.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 6, 2012, 05:19 PM   #61
springer99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2008
Posts: 146
Darn it guys, here I was, just getting used to the idea of calling my M-1 Carbine a "Williams" or "Johnson", and now we're back to the Garand idea. I'm just glad I didn't throw out my manuals from the CMP for the M-1 or the Carbine. Call it what you want to; it'll always just be an "M-1" or "Carbine" to me.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg M1 and Carbine manuals.jpg (198.0 KB, 13 views)
springer99 is offline  
Old May 6, 2012, 07:33 PM   #62
OutlawJoseyWales
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 217
Thanks for the info, guys, I've been sitting back waiting for all this "noise" to clear so as to be able to communicate without sounding ignorant. I think those who carried these into battle have the right to call them anything they want. It seems that I am stil safe in saying, "That's my M-1 Garand" and thanking God for having IT and the knowing men who carried them into battle.
OutlawJoseyWales is offline  
Old May 7, 2012, 04:12 AM   #63
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 5,229
Quote:
My opinion of the man himself is that he was a genius and that his rifle was what was needed to help the U.S. win over the Axis powers; I have nothing but the highest regard for him, though I only met him one time for a few minutes.
That's impressive and a rare privilege.

I dealt with a man in the 70s who worked with Garand, and, apparently knew him well enough to be invited to his home to watch his ice skating. The particular gentleman I knew ended up working as a consultant to Savage in the production of Thompsons, and came up with a brilliantly simple idea to bore barrels concentrically. (Apparently, Savage had problems with barrels being bored off center in the early days.)

Meeting THE MAN himself, though, is a real feather in your cap, Jim.
gyvel is offline  
Old May 7, 2012, 10:00 PM   #64
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
Perhaps I should not have mentioned it, as I cannot claim to have "known" Mr. Garand. I was introduced to him at an AOA convention in Washington (about 1958) by an ordnance colonel I knew pretty well. I do recall that the colonel pronounced his name as "Gar' und" with the first syllable like "Gary", and Mr. Garand didn't correct him, so I always assumed that was the right pronunciation, something that seems to be always in question. He seemed like a nice fellow. We shook hands, I said something like "Very pleased to meet you", and he said something about the same, and we went our separate ways. We didn't discuss the finer points of rifle design or what some part of his rifle was intended to do.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 8, 2012, 08:20 PM   #65
Amsdorf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri
Posts: 849
Back to the Garand name...

Please watch the military's training videos, made during WWII....they refer to the rifle as the Garand.

I see little point in debating the obvious, but...FWIW.

There you go.
Amsdorf is offline  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:07 PM   #66
smoakingun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2009
Location: melrose, fl
Posts: 634
I made a phone call. To my grandad. He joined the corp in sept. 1939. He retired in 1972. According to him, in bootcamp he was trained with "the springfield". When he reported to his first ship, he carried the 1911. When he went to the infantry in july 1942 he was issued "the Garand". All I can say is, he would know what the Corp called it.
__________________
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
smoakingun is offline  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:20 PM   #67
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 20,001
But Amsdorf, why should I debate when I am obviously right and you are so sadly wrong.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old May 8, 2012, 09:30 PM   #68
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
It doesn't matter at this late date. Its like the .45 Colt vs .45 Long Colt debate. If I say Garand, or .45 Long Colt, most everyone knows what I'm referring too and only a few will quibble about the accuracy and authenticity of it.

"I like Garands you load 'em with those springy do-jiggers." "I wish it used clips like muh .45" -random clod Don't waste time correcting this guy, cause wasting time and/or breath is all you're doing.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old May 8, 2012, 11:22 PM   #69
Amsdorf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri
Posts: 849
The invincibly ignorant will never be able to be corrected...

But, watch the training films the Army made during World War II.

Note, for example, the film made in 1943. Take note of that date.

Then, note that Gen. MacArthur refers to it as "the Garand rifle."

Then, note the narrator refers to it as the M1 .30 Caliber, "commonly known as the Garand."

And so forth and so on.

Case closed.

Let the ignorant remain ignorant.

Amsdorf is offline  
Old May 8, 2012, 11:39 PM   #70
Amsdorf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri
Posts: 849
Also, please note how the word "Garand" is pronounced when referring to the rifle. "Guh-rand" with second syllable emphasized.

John Garand's name, however, was pronounced: "Gerh-end" emphasis on first syllable, this is well documented in Julian Hatcher's definitive work on the Garand.

Familiar with that book?

Julian S. Hatcher, The Book of the Garand, Washington, Infantry Journal Press, 1947 [Riling 2645]

What's that? Hatcher calls it a Garand?

What did he know? He was just the guy largely responsible for getting the Garand through the whole R&D, development and production cycle for years.

Another stupid person, I guess, who just doesn't know what he is talking about?

Amsdorf is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 06:42 AM   #71
springer99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2008
Posts: 146
But, watch the training films the Army made during World War II.

Note, for example, the film made in 1943. Take note of that date.

Then, note that Gen. MacArthur refers to it as "the Garand rifle."

Then, note the narrator refers to it as the M1 .30 Caliber, "commonly known as the Garand."


Please, please, please don't make me sit thru those d.... govt. videos again. I've seem them all too many times, and like alot of what the govt. puts out, I believe less than 100% of it. Of course, as Gen. McArther carried one for so long, he must be right, right?

If calling it a Guh-rand makes you feel better, then have at it.
springer99 is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 06:45 AM   #72
Amsdorf
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2011
Location: Saint Louis, Missouri
Posts: 849
Invincible ignorance...there is apparently no known cure.

Amsdorf is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 04:00 PM   #73
Hardcase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,909
Seriously? So much fuss over this? C'mon, guys, let's get out and do a little shooting!

And not at ten paces, either!
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae
Hardcase is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 04:49 PM   #74
Chris_B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2007
Posts: 2,841
I stand by my earlier conviction: it's called a ham and swiss on rye
Chris_B is offline  
Old May 9, 2012, 05:58 PM   #75
SHNOMIDO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2011
Location: Illinois
Posts: 423
lol^

I think the prevalence of "Garand" comes from the same place as Deagle and PP7

The vidja games.

Im pretty sure it was referred to as the Garand in the old medal of honors and call of duty's.

For what its worth i call it the Garand, and i also say .45 Long Colt. Not because of video games, but because thats the terms my dad used when first describing these things to me at a young age.

The question is, where did he pick it up to pass it on?
SHNOMIDO is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14832 seconds with 10 queries