The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old April 13, 2012, 08:53 AM   #1
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
Help please I need to build an AR or M4!

The wisdom of this forum has moved me to building a carbine rather than selecting one of the ready rolled offerings currently available from major and minor manufacturers..... I think.

I would like to prevail upon the experiences of others here in order to accomplish this task, if you please.


so would you mind helping me build a very nice AR or M4!


You know you want to build another anyway, right? Then tell me what you’d do now to accomplish it, that’s all.


This ought to be fun, and help me for sure, but others as well in the process. It darn well ought to be interesting if nothing else!


Please indicate Who, what, and where to get it all.


This project should primarily remain in the camp of self defense and home defense first, and fun at the range a close second!


Pick any caliber… EXCEPT 5.56mm.


Whatever round is selected it should be able to be shot in FMJ & JHP.

of course, if you know of a rifle which contains my listed requirements and more that is a current production model and aviable now... tell me about it please.



Budget - $1,000 & under… under is definitely preferred!!!



Requirements:

Please indicate the barrel make up and it’s twist, both should be optimized for whatever caliber you select, and 16 inches long, unless another inch or so, more or less, is absolutely required for that special caliber to perform best.

1 Versatility for later ‘DROP IN’ or ‘add on’ exchanges or improvements or upgrades.

2 Gas operated with port - blow back outside of the chamber

3 Affordable/inexpensive 20 rd or more ammo mags.

4 Nice easy smooth trigger with what? 3lb? 2.5lb? 4lb pull, and a reasonably crisp break? (if this requires a re-working from some specialist, indicate this as such so I’ll know who to send it to later on, but see this as an option, not a pre-requisite )

5 Flat top upper receiver with lengthy 1913 rail.

Don’t pick out sights or lights, but it should be able to accommodate both simultaneously.

6 Adjustable butt stock… preferably one that flips up over the barrel.

7 Rail & Grip on forend… Larue?

8 FDE OR BLACK Poly or Plastic stock or better material is fine enough.

9 It should be capable of winding up in the ten ring up to and past if possible, 250ft. ordinarily, 100 – 150 ft or less I’d guess will be it’s probable ‘real world’ range.

10 Threaded barrel for after market blast hidders or suppressors or ???

11 Polished or chromed chamber or barrel, for longevity, upkeep and accuracy.

12 Easy take down for field maintenance.

13 Sling.

14 Ammo ought to be a true knocker downer or large damage hole, if shot in JHP.


(I sort of like the 6mm rounds I saw posted online, though I’ve no idea on how they shoot or their cost per shot. 6.8SPC 2 … 6.5mm, and 7.62 interest me a lot)… but cost per round is kind of important too. I sure don’t want to be shooting a buck per…


I'll buy or build one of these for sure, and I'll post pics of it as soon as it arrives.

Tremendous thanks.
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 09:13 AM   #2
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,923
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...ned-upper.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...r15-lower.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...build-kit.html

I provided three links for everything you need to build a quality AR-15 in 300AAC. The reason I chose 300AAC is because every part is compatible with 5.56 except for the barrel, including the Magazines.
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-

Last edited by Palmetto-Pride; April 13, 2012 at 09:41 AM.
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 09:56 AM   #3
tirod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1,217
There's one major item left in all the requirements. You haven't told us what target, and at what ranges you'll be using this.

A 600m paper target shooter isn't a 14.5" CQB carbine. I know you said HD/SD carbine, that's simply not good enough for actual use - because nobody does except military and LEO.

And they use M16's in 20" for that, too.

Here's the deal -without knowing the range and target, you'll get everyone's pet recommendation, and frankly, most will be less than optimal.

.300BO? Nice for 150 yard work, but 5.56 will do that, too, and cheaper. .500 Beowulf can kick it's butt,too. But neither are much good out to 500m, in fact, they don't get there well at all without learning some serious holdover.

Likely, without a specific target named - LIVE vs. PAPER, and what ranges it will be engaged at the maximum - 150, 250, 350, 450 - it's going to quickly degenerate into a contest of who can express their opinion in a way that influences most - and that isn't necessarily with all the facts.

I'm getting popcorn.
tirod is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 12:17 PM   #4
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
thanks so far folks..

Palmetto Pride
Thanks much… I’ll look into that today.

Tirod said:
“There's one major item left in all the requirements. You haven't told us what target, and at what ranges you'll be using this.”

As for range & target, I’m not sure exactly what you mean. Indoor ranges only … or very very likely. Then of course, whatever size target emulates a distance of 250ft, 200ft, 150ft, 100ft…. and less with silhouettes naturally., or as far as my optics selection will allow me to acquire.

Probably, given my vision, a 100ft target indoors will be my max without serious magnification, and at that distance I believe I’ll need a LASER…. Not a DOT.

The sights I plan on using won’t have magnification properties. Eotech 512 is one of those I like so far, but I’ve not had it demonstrated yet, but will shortly. Another is a Green LASER. Some of these LASER sights will get demo’d at the same time. Most likely If I can utilize the E 512, and feel confident with it, I’ll add a lesser priced import LASER additionally.

I’ve seen a green LASER get out past 100 ft readily, just the other evening. It’s also why I said I’d need a rail elsewhere on the weapon besides up top.

The idea is to BOTH nail any bad guys on my little piece of Heaven, and generally speaking, only inside the mansion. ….at whatever hour. Either as a primary response weapon, or as an alternatie choice to the SPX.

I enjoy using my SPX, DON’T GET ME WRONG HERE. I merely have a little dose of “getanother whatyaain’tgot” gun bug I suppose. I’d also like to be comfortable with the knowledge if things go South fast, I have the ‘reach’ my SPX does not…. And I simply cant see me shooting anything or anyone beyond 150ft without pretty decent magnification to begin with.

A sixteen inch barrel as I mentioned above or what is allowed by law, are short IMHO. My 930 SPX has an 18 incher. So 16 would be less huh? Especially if it has a flash hidder on it, as then, the actual barrel would be shorter than sixteen, wouldn’t it?. I really don’t know the truth on that item.

Hope that clears up things.



Perhaps I’m actually looking for an M4 platform with the collapsible or hinged stock, as it should be more maneuverable inside the home.


Thank you for the input! Sorry I wasn’t more clear initially.


As for merging this thread with some other one, I have no objections, although things change with time. Prices, technology, accessories, etc., so the latest request might well be more reflective of the times...


...and as Mr. Zimmerman said a while back, "the times, they are a changin'"
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 12:53 PM   #5
MK11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2001
Posts: 575
If the primary mission is home defense, I wouldn't threaten reliability with a caliber that wasn't developed for the platform (I get that the 6.whatevers were, but you also said price is a consideration).

Show me a 7.62x39 caliber AR that's been run hard in a carbine class without problems, not just popping off a few rounds at the range.
MK11 is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 08:09 PM   #6
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
Thanks for the feedback MK II

If a round, or caliber works in the AR15, or M4 platform, can't it be said it was designed for it? Be it way back when, or now?

These 'platforms' have tremendous built in configurability. Versatility, and can be optioned out & up almost indefinitely... if you include ammo choices too.

I'm sure there will be other bullets which will come along, designed to fit and fire consistently in the AR15 & M4 guns.

Though I do believe I see your point here... a .300 AAC round is currently a pricey bullet to be sending out of the muzzle, running almost a buck a pop, or $0.90 + per.

but that round, with the 6mms I listed were all Designed to run in exactly the aR 15, M4 platform.

I can't or don't want to get into why some failures in 7.62 were accounted for unless each event was similar to those others and with continued frequency which alone, would indicate a problem with the making of the round, more so than it's inherent chambering, firing, and ballistic characteristics

I'm also not knowledgeable enough to speak on former and hence solved issues either. I'm sure there have been significant strides in overcoming former problems inherent to the platform itself to remedy previous anomlies..

Who, and how the round is made is a whole other bag of worms.

How the weapon was kept up & or maintained can be similarly argued.

it is my understanding, corect me if I'm wrong, that the gas piston arrangement was set in place to overcome the AR 15s propensity for accumulating more 'junk in the trunk' or trash in the chamber, and to place the debris out of their former ‘catch basins’ and hence enabling former said failures to be overcome.

there are far too many considerations or factors as to how or why any rifle or ammunition fails. together or separately.

A friend says to me recently his 556 jammed on him the other day. How why or when, I'm unsure. I know he stays on top of his armory though.

I've never had a failure when in need of a weapons use when I was in complete control of it, and it's ammo. Regardless the brand or model.

All of my weapon failures occurred when the gun was either brand new or had just broken, was filthy, or the ammo was bad. I don't ordinarily run seconds, unless I know who did 'em and how they were done. Usually I opt for name brand slugs appropriate to the pistol or rifle. I’m not keen on the PLUS P ammo either.

.... but I can understand how one platform or another can be problematic. Things change.

Sometimes.

Were I to become involved in some weekend WAR GAME, or TRAINING EXERCISE, and experienced jams & or failures routinely? I’d find another weapon…. And another round perhaps.

I doubt I’ll be dragging them/it thru the mud the blood and the beer with any of mine…. But we’ll see.

Thanks again for the heads up on that rifle and that ammo. I’ll definitely take it under advisement. Thanks.
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 08:47 PM   #7
JeffSSig
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2008
Location: TN
Posts: 329
Budget - $1,000 & under… under is definitely preferred!!!


This stopped me from helping you to much.

Just a good upper will run 6-700$

A good trigger will run around 200$



This line has me stumped : 6 Adjustable butt stock… preferably one that flips up over the barrel.

Now one can build a good AR for 1K. ( In a 223/5.56) And I agree to the 300 or jump up to a 308
__________________
http://www.SigPower.com
JeffSSig is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 10:19 PM   #8
tirod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1,217
I'll address a few things:

3 Affordable/inexpensive 20 rd or more ammo mags. Not really, only 5.56 is cheap - all the alternative calibers run $15 and up.

4 Nice easy smooth trigger with what? 3lb? 2.5lb? 4lb pull, and a reasonably crisp break? (if this requires a re-working from some specialist, indicate this as such so I’ll know who to send it to later on, but see this as an option, not a pre-requisite ) Amy Gisselle's GI trigger.

5 Flat top upper receiver with lengthy 1913 rail. You can't bridge the upper to handguard gap with most scopes. And 48" of quad rail is one darn expensive light mount.

6 Adjustable butt stock… preferably one that flips up over the barrel. Not happening. It's an AR, the stock will attach to the buffer tube.

10 Threaded barrel for after market blast hidders or suppressors or ??? Most are threaded, use the standard GI unless you have gone thru the BATF hurdles to own a suppressor. Add $1000.

11 Polished or chromed chamber or barrel, for longevity, upkeep and accuracy. Chromed GI is 2MOA. Stainless is down to 1/2MOA - but for an indoor HD, wasted money. Best overall is nitrided.

I built a 6.8 dissipator in Foliage Green, A1 stock, rifle handguards, cut down M4 carry handle rear sight. The trigger has an adjustable set screw which takes out 85% of the creep and grit, but retains the 6 pound weight for safely using it in the field. It's an A3 upper to mount a red dot optic - which the military uses for hitting a target quickly out to 350m. They work, the Army has literally bought hundreds of thousands. I still have my 1Gen Aimpoint from the '70s - it proved they work.

I built the gun to hit live targets (deer) out to 350 meters with ammo that still had over 1000 foot pounds of force. I didn't need extended range because in most cases, shots come under 150m. Fast acquisition is paramount to get on target before the game moves off and hides again - exactly the same conditions as combat. I did it in Foliage Green because the original M16 was camo'd grey anodized and OD. Professionals camo their weapons in the field, black is some bureaucrats idea of parade ready, not combat effective.

I assembled it with vice grips, old drill bits as punches, and a pair of channel lock pliers, because I had them. I have some experience mechanically, and having served, I know that an armorer's tool kit is largely for working on the larger machine guns in the unit. Buying tools would be a waste of money for my one gun build.

I built it the way I did because I was shooting live targets - which needs adequate power for humane purposes, and I would be shooting out to 350m max. That meant a 16" legal barrel, because 6.8 was developed for 14.5, but I didn't want to pay more in a tax stamp for SBR, just to have ordinary performance. I wanted a flattop for a red dot to get on target fast, a short fixed stock, because adjustables are usually set to one length anyway, and rifle handguard, to cover more of the exposed barrel, hot or cold. I didn't need more rail, but if I do, $10 strips can be bolted on to hold whatever it was I don't need. No Sling. It just tangles up in everything and it's not a long distance Olympic shooter.

That's why I asked what target and range, all too many builds jump all over the marketplace adding on parts never meant to work with each other - it's highly counterproductive in many cases. You get a rifle compromised to do nothing very well, so, it doesn't.

But, it looks really really cool in pics, which is everything on the internet.
tirod is offline  
Old April 13, 2012, 10:44 PM   #9
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
No one can build a good Ar for under $1K.

"No can do for a G".... I do appreciate the warning however.

the problem is though, I can't go any higher.... nor do I feel I should. I sincerely believe one can have a mighty decent wepon snapped together for a grand.... or there are a whole bunch of people fibbing all over the web.

or a good many makers that are far too proud of what they are currently making.

Will it be POF, HK, PWS, or even Daniel Defense levels?

Doubtful.

But then upper tier weapons such as those I would call 'superb' or excellent, or outstanding.... and NOT simply 'nice' or pretty good, or decent. But that's just me.

I suppose you're right! only one person has shown me what and where to go, so far.

Funny though... as I read thru this forum or that one, there's nothing to it! Parts are cheap!! you can get a ??? AR 15 for $599 ready to shoot!!! $60 less if you shove it all together first.
Perhaps someone should tell some of these makers/distributors selling uppers for only $399, that what they are selling is not good. lol

But then aren’t the terms, ‘good – nice - great’ subjective anyhow?
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.

Last edited by Blindjim; April 13, 2012 at 10:59 PM.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 14, 2012, 12:11 AM   #10
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
Tirod
3 Affordable/inexpensive 20 rd or more ammo mags. Not really, only 5.56 is cheap - all the alternative calibers run $15 and up.

Me
Given my FNH FNP 45T mags are right at $50 a pop… HK run as high as $70… $20 - $40 is fine.



RE Gisselle's GI trigger.
Q: How much?



RE 5 Flat top upper receiver with lengthy 1913 rail. You can't bridge the upper to handguard gap with most scopes. And 48" of quad rail is one darn expensive light mount.

I doubt I understand what you just said, fully.

Of course I don’t mean having a rail the length of the weapon itself.

Re6 Adjustable butt stock… preferably one that flips up over the barrel. Not happening. It's an AR, the stock will attach to the buffer tube.

Like I said, I need all the help I can get… thanks. Now I know about that .

RE 10 Threaded barrel for after market blast hidders or suppressors or ??? Most are threaded, use the standard GI

What exactly is a GI in this context? A GI IMO is an enlisted man… can we speak plainly here or are we predisposed to use some military centax instead?

I apologize. i used to know everything at one point in time , but I just don’t care to know it all anymore. Especially uncommonly used, or remote abbreviations.

Re unless you have gone thru the BATF hurdles to own a suppressor. Add $1000.

Yeah… I got that$200 just for the … tax stamp bit… BTW, they don’t run a grand each from every maker out there… although, all I was really concerned with is the flash itself…. Not a silencer. And we should call a spade a spade shouldn’t we? A silencer is a SILENCER! Why try to be sneaky with jargon?

A silencer for HD? Hahahahaha

Wake up the freakin’ dead! if I’m in trouble!.

Re 11 Polished or chromed chamber or barrel, for longevity, upkeep and accuracy.
Chromed GI is 2MOA. Stainless is down to 1/2MOA - but for an indoor HD, wasted money. Best overall is nitrided.

We keep learning. Thanks.

RE I wanted a flattop for a red dot to get on target fast, a short fixed stock, because adjustables are usually set to one length anyway, and rifle handguard, to cover more of the exposed barrel, hot or cold. I didn't need more rail, but if I do, $10 strips can be bolted on to hold whatever it was I don't need. No Sling. It just tangles up in everything and it's not a long distance Olympic shooter.

Well mostly, me too. It’s also why I changed my theme to one for an M4, rather than an AR. And except for the Aimpoint. Aimpoint Ain’t happening.

Slings can be taken off, right? They do have their uses from time to time though.

Tirod
RE That's why I asked what target and range, all too many builds jump all over the marketplace adding on parts never meant to work with each other - it's highly counterproductive in many cases. You get a rifle compromised to do nothing very well, so, it doesn't.

Short quick, and hard hitting, with reach out to 250ft with fine accuracy.. likely better than I can currently shoot…. With aiming devices.

If it’s dead at 200ft… how far off is it at 20ft? High by what.. 2 inches? Fine. That’s just fine by me. I’m pretty sure I’ll remember that.

I’m merely tiring of wasting rounds into the dark for little more than easing in a new weapon.. and there is freakin’ rhetoric about that bit too. Sweet jumpon jellyfish!! You’re what? Breakin in a pistol? Jeeez… just shoot the darn thing a cople hundered rounds and clean it up! Gosh.

I’m figuring with a LASER which for me at the range is as good as I guess I’ll get unless there’s some scope out there with one built into it… will let me actually hit where I’ve been able to land rounds with open sights… in the 10 ring at 100 – 150ft. in the past at least.

those days are over for me due to my active duty time in the military! The price I paid was my vision and it seems a few other things as time passes. . I’d just like to get reacquainted with the fun aspect of range time now and then. As much as I can.

Simply because a rifle is best at this or that doesn’t mean it can’t do something else. Trust me. Jeezz.. lighten up. We ain’t walking a perimeter here or looking for IEDs!

I had a match Remington 700 BDL large barrel for small bore competition once. Did you know the butt stock on that rifle can utterly destroy a roach at one metrer!?

.45 ACP FMJ can become ear plugs?

That an empty M1 carbine can remove at least two teeth from a large obnoxious drunk?

Or that a small tree can be cut down with a 12ga shotgun? Eventually.

It’s all true despite the fact none of those uses were intended for those appliances or accessories.
!

Obviously I’ve asked some questions and gotten responses from some of the more extremist folks here… well save for one anyhow.

My bad… I thought this was gonna be a piece of cake… Hey jim.. look at these here… and so forth. Like the very first poster wrote.

Wow. I mean, after all, I did ask for help, right?…

I ain’t G.I Joe any longer. I amended the fact an M4 would be better suited for my needs.

Not one eagle eye spotted that.

Only one person saw I didn’t want to shoot 556.

Screw it. Never mind. Sorry I bothered you all. Have fun and thanks.
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.

Last edited by Tom Servo; April 29, 2012 at 09:32 AM. Reason: Removed insult to other member
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 14, 2012, 03:19 PM   #11
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
Finis...

I beleive I'll buy a Stag.. 6.8mm. Model 6 unless I can get 6.8 in some of teir other models.

then do the Seals or LMT trigger.

thanks for all the help.
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 22, 2012, 08:15 PM   #12
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
FYI... IT'S A BOY! ....eretta CX4 Storm, instead.

“First the answer”


Well… due to the absolute lack of any replies, returned calls or emails from STAG Arms on any point of concern I had for some further clarification on their weapons, I went into another direction entirely.

About to pull the trigger on a ‘from the toes up custom DIY build a rifle kit’ at PSA, I reflected on it as well, and must say here PSA CUSTOMER SERVICE AND PERSONAL ASSISTANCE IS JUST GREAT….unlike STAG’s, during my endeavor.


Following some outstanding advice from one or two members, I pursued some others like HI Points, FNAR, Springfield M1 A1, DPMS, SPIKE, or even Ruger Mini 14.

Rather than kick it with some relatively new designer ammo like 6.5mm, 6.8 SPC, 7.62MM, 300 AAC, OR 45ACP, which could run me as high as 90 + cents per shot, I re-reviewed my main goals. HD and Range fun without forcing me to file for Bankruptcy.


Finding one locally, and in new condition, today I bought the CX4 Beretta in .40SW. NIB. w/100 rds Federal 180 FMJ… incl’d tax and background fee, $700. Good bad or indifferent on the price. It’s done.

Well, apart from some after market gear to add or replace existing gear on the weapon which I see as a need, it’s done. The CX4 Storm sits in it’s case just across the room from me right now.
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 05:21 AM   #13
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,161
Here are a few things if you decide to build an AR down the road...

The quality of the build between brands is usually, believe it or not, similar. The quality of the MATERIALS used is where the differences lie.

You can buy the individual parts, to be sure. But--most folks actually end up buying assemblies (groups of parts) and not knowing it. You probably would be surprised at how many tiny parts are lurking in the average AR15 design rifle/carbine. Example--within the 600 meter or the 800 meter rear sight assembly, there are three tiny springs and three REALLY tiny ball bearings. They lurk quietly, and will jump out, heading for the shag carpet given the opportunity. Don't ask me how I know...

If you are building a carbine, you MUST ensure that you mount a CARBINE barrel into a CARBINE upper--one with the proper feed ramps cut. If the feed ramps are not there--or, even worse, if you install a CARBINE barrel into a RIFLE upper, you have created the monster known as a "carfle" --a brass and cartridge mangling entity.

You will end up purchasing a bolt carrier assembly--because if you purchase the stripped carrier, you'll need a carrier key and bolts. And if you go that route, you'll need a proper staking tool. Quite a few carrier keys out there are not staked properly, leading to gas loss and failures to cycle.

You will also need proper tools--unless you want mushroomed pins and "wallered" out holes.

There's a lot more--and by the time you purchase all the parts and the tools to do it, you might as well spend a bit more coin and buy a good quality carbine right off the bat.

Best of luck to you, and I hope you enjoy that CX4.
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 07:36 AM   #14
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
the solution and a remark or too...

Powderman
Very cool. I’ll collect that post and save it for future reference. Thank you.



Solution:
So here’s the end game, and using my brain as best I am able seeing as how I have no idea what I’m talking about much of the time anyhow…. This is my final answer for this thread too. My brain hurts too much, taxed so severely as it is, it needs a break. So for closure sake….


Due to the absolute lack of any replies, returned calls or emails from STAG Arms (among others) on any point of concern I had for some further clarification on their weapons, prior to my purchase of one from them or their dealers, I decided to go into a wholely different direction.

Support is important still regardless the reputation or build quality…. And no one among us likes getting dis’d.

Then, following yet other streams, as I was moments away from pulling the trigger on a toes up custom DIY build a rifle kit’ at PSA, I reflected on it as well, and must admit I had some reservations still. However and in deference to the experience I had or didn’t have with STAG arms ultimately, I must say here by contrast PSA CUSTOMER SERVICE AND PERSONAL ASSISTANCE waS JUST outstanding!


Following some remarkable advice from one or two members, I pursued some other options like HI Points, FNAR, Springfield M1 A1, DPMS, SPIKE, and as well, Ruger Mini 14s and the Beretta CX4 Storm carbines. Almost all to no avail. Out of stock was quickly becoming as quaint and forthcoming as is “Good morning” or “How are you?”.


Eventually I thought too, rather than kick it with some relatively new and somewhat more costly ‘designer ammo’ like 6.5mm, 6.8 SPC, 7.62MM x 39/40/41, 300 AAC, all of which could run me as high as 90 + cents per shot, I re-reviewed my main goals in earnest. They are still, HD and Range fun without forcing me to file for Bankruptcy.


This idea of mine to acquire a new ‘carbine’ of sorts must have been ill fated from the start. Or some really strange things are going on in the gun world at large. I just kept running into locked or jammed closed doors. Over and over again. The costs or prices continued to escalate while considering options and outfittings of some of the aR – M4 builds/purchases which interested me. Many simply were unavailable completely! Some had lengthy indeterminate wait periods associated with them. Some were available but in restricted states config.


I should mention too, those which were on my list and a good portion of those that were not, but came by way of outside input yielded about the same non results. I felt some dispair and oddly some desperation too in trying to find a carbine I’d like or be able to buy.


Time too was an issue. Adding on more trails to blaze for info and education of myself on so many peripherals and unfamiliar now guns ammo alike kept mounting. The longer I forestalled making a selection the longer my impending gun hike became. . At hand the two primary choices were, a DIY PSA 300 AAC AR build that with appropriate yet modest outfitting came to almost $1200… so I could do that and look forward to pitching $4 on the gun range floor for every 5 shots, OR just maybe take one more look into that Bohemian like esthetic and diminutive pistol rifle from Beretta. Up close and personal.


Remarkably, I found one. It was local too! Asign from on High? Beats me. So with a friend along for the transportation, I got out to see how it felt. Not bad. Not bad at all. Sure, it’s small, but it fit in several ways. Had those things needed for function in close enough reach to the on or off hand, as it were. Light weight and it definitely points well indeed. With just a wee bit of work it could be quite the thing for those events under 150ft or not much more as is it’s intentioned operating sphere..


With a brief counter offer or two I bought the CX4 Beretta in .40SW Sunday. NIB. w/100 rds Federal 180 FMJ… incl’d tax and background fee, $700. Good bad or indifferent on the price. Stick a fork in me, we’re done buying guns.


Well…. For a while at least… now we are into selling one or two!


apart from some after market gear to add or replace some of the existing hardware on the weapon which I see as a back burner sort of need, it’s done. The CX4 Storm sits in it’s case just across the room from me right now.


It was a wee bit of a compromise of sorts. Overall, it satisfies a few areas of necessity. The available calibers I saw in the DIY AR 15 camp were definite compromises in that all I could find which came even close to whetting my appetite for a new long gun were 6.8 SPC II, and .300 AAC. Neither of which truly floated my boat, caliber wise 100%, Both added some concern too for over penetration as the purposed gun was for quite close in operation, despite their long legged ballistic characteristics.


Aside from the CX4’s diminutive stature, which is manageable for sure, it possesses man killer ability in it’s .40SW nominal round size, interesting esthetics, affordable shots per round, and simplistic break down, even if it does have some curious drawbacks or shortcomings built in.

If the idea is to get rounds downrange accurately, reliably and affordably, the Storm should be on one’s short list. That said, the CX4 could have used some more vitamins and minerals during it’s conception. Although quick to deploy, easy to handle, ready and willing to shoot, for me it lacks adequate length to shoulder. The pull is truncated. Designed in artifact or trait? It seems so. Yet a natural firing stance has a shootter bringing a rifle to his or her shoulder routinely. Only training and experience can defer this inherent desire I suspect. It would seem too, Beretta had a0nother plan in mind than strickly shoulder firing positions, unless I’m mistaken severely when they agreed on the design and began building this rifle.


Naturally you can certainly shoulder the CX4. handily. I did and do despite for me, it’s limited pull distance. Briefly thereafter raising it to eye level and adjusting to it’s lack of barrel nose upright aperture, (the front sight post which is set well back onto the upper stock of the Storm carbine) but just a few times got me into how the CX4 needs to be cradled. Of course, with energized or light projecting optics, I would submit shouldering this weapon becomes fundamentally less of a prerequisite.

A word on the trigger. Often online comments are cloaked in their true motivation. Brand loyalists rave on their picks and levy heavy fire upon those who would not give them their due. Other more paranoid clans squabble and rail outright aginst those would even say this or that which may remotely be construed as a negative tone, and then there’s the overwhelming ambiguity and subjectiveness that accompanies every account of anything, anywhere, so long as it is penned by hand. More than once I’ve read the trigger feel on the CX4 contained grit, or dis-ease in it’s migration to release. I felt none what so ever in mine. Nada. Nice easy, and smooth. Nearly predictable after just a couple tugs. Around the 6 – 8 pound pull range IMO. Perhaps other factors play into this controversy, but again, the CX 4 I bought has no such catchy feel to the trigger pull at all. A nice break and a steady feel throughout it’s limited distance. So there’s that.
.

I’m going to add at least a LASER sight, and quite likely a LED light, if not both in but one combination device like a Surefire x 400. a LASER for sure, name brand or not. A few other goodies but not much, definitely yet one more spacer on that butt. Oh, and a case or 50 of ammo.


All who submitted their input here have my deepest appreciation. And gratitude. Thank you.


, 1

Q01. How many ‘butt spacers’ can you affix onto the CX4 stock? How are they held on… I can’t find any screw holes.

Q2. How exactly, do you tell which series of CX4 magazine the rifle carries?

Q3. Front (fore end) is the serial number just ahead on the barrel itself?
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.

Last edited by Tom Servo; April 29, 2012 at 09:35 AM. Reason: Removed response to deleted post
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 12:32 PM   #15
Powderman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2001
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,161
Good deal!

Now...guess what? If you don't already, it's time to invest in some reloading equipment--especially now, since you have a high speed reloading component generator. You'll get to the place where 100 rounds doesn't even interest you.

If you do reloads, kewl beanz! If not, for starters take a look at a good turret press. It's as simple to run as a single stage; you can do rifle and pistol on it, caliber changes are very quick indeed and once you get started you'l have a blast.
__________________
Hiding in plain sight...
Powderman is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 05:30 PM   #16
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
Funny you should mention that...

...just last night while showing my 'gun building & collecting neighbor the new CX4 and telling him it was in .40SW, he lit right up and began telling me how 'WE'' should begin reloading it and our 45 ACPs together.

I breifly reminded him, with the last bit of my near non existant brain, mixing .40SW & .45 ACPs together is asking for trouble, isn't it?

Shortly after the laughter died, he said what we would neeed he doesn't already have for the SW bullets. He already reloads all of his guns ammo, but doesn't have a couple items he, uh, we, need to address this new brand.

so, it looks like that might well be the direction things will go .... it's for sure I'll not be doing much of the actual pressing or filling powder into the brass.... but then I'd suppose things are nearly 100% automatic these days.

My friend did say something about getting a mold or something.

So we'll see. I'd like very much to load my own slugs, especially for my FNP 45 Tactical. & Ruger KP 345. I'm satisfied with what I can get off the shelves around here or online for my 12 ga.

Thanks
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 06:19 PM   #17
sigcurious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
BlindJim, IIRC the cx4 .40sw accepts px4 .40sw magazines. Although I do think they make higher capacity ones with the cx4 in mind. I think they also make kits to use 96 series magazines.
sigcurious is offline  
Old April 23, 2012, 06:47 PM   #18
wbw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2008
Posts: 658
Hey Jim, congrats on your CX4. I just bought a used one myself last week and did it locally face-to-face. No tax even.

I took mine to the range last Friday. It was fun but nothing outstanding. I've ordered a red dot for it. I too feel like I need another spacer in the butt. I feel all scrunched up. I'm used to shooting handguns.

My trigger pull feels too heavy for me. I've been working on the hammer catch to lighten and shorten the pull. Don't want to remove too much though.

Hope you enjoy yours.
wbw is offline  
Old April 25, 2012, 11:23 AM   #19
tirod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1,217
I'd say the OP got exactly what he wanted - justification to ignore the opinions of those he asked, to impulsively buy whatever.

From AR15 to CX4, another happy poster satisfied. We've done our job here, things have probably turned out for the better.
tirod is offline  
Old April 26, 2012, 04:58 PM   #20
Blindjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2012
Location: Sunburn State
Posts: 116
Lovely...

Sig….
You are correct. All series, 92; 96; PX4. the 96 series from what I’m seeing online has the greater capacity for 40SW. 20 in it, but only 17 in the PX4… well so far that’s what I’ve seen.

The PRODUCT CODE indicates which series of CX 4 one has. Not the SERIAL #.

If one opts to buy the Beretta Converter one must also buy and install the EJECT button for the then converted to carry magazine. Ie., From a 92 – PX 4, then the PX 4 eject button has to get got and installed too.

Thanks a lot.


WBW
Good for you… keep me posted on what you’ve done on the trigger pull… and it’s end result.

BTW… know where the PRODUCT CODE & the SERIAL # are located on it?




Tirod said: “I'd say the OP got exactly what he wanted - justification to ignore the opinions of those he asked, to impulsively buy whatever”

Then… “our work is done…”

Our? Obviously you have a mouse in your pocket. All you did was ask something I posted in my opening remarks… HD Home Defense, exactly how much distance is HD revolving around most of the time? 20ft? less? More? 30ft?


Had you stopped at “The OP got exactly what he wanted…” part, you’d have been very close to being on target here, however you missed the point so badly it’s embarrassing.
You don’t read all of the post a person jots down, do you?



Therefore, You missed this part:
The wisdom of this forum has moved me to building a carbine rather than selecting one of the ready rolled offerings currently available from major and minor manufacturers..... I think.

Hmmm…. That “….I think” bit got right past you, huh?

You sound disappointed to me and of all those who added their input here, you were the last one I wanted to upset. And your input was probably the best of all! jUst like now.


As the result of these posts, and I’ve either congratulated or sincerely welcomed and thanked them all, I made a decision.


That means I did not ignore anyone… BTW


I have now the info I need to proceed with an AR build should I desire, or better said, be ready to build or buy one and keep it loaded and warm.


Anyone else who reads this now updated to spring ’12 thread. Should they desire, will have more current data.


The ongoing discussion (discussion mind you, not orders) showed me a few things about AR rifles. They cost a good bit to shoot if you stray from the 556 club, and/or don’t reload your own ammo. Around $4 for every group of 5 shots.


I’M NOT NOW NOR LIKELY WILL BE A MEMBER OF THE 556 ENCAMPMENT…. NOR DO I THINK RELOADING MY OWN SHELLS IS A GOOD IDEA…. But that’s just me.


The research accompanying these posts also showed me the caliber I wanted was listed on many websites as NOT AVAILABLE by researching those makers listed herein by those who joined into this thread with their input. Some makers in fact won’t even bother to reply to emails or return calls… ala STAG Arms. Perhaps they’re out of business or maybe headed that way. Suits me! I’ll have no part of them going forward.


All of that said, I nearly settled for one I did not really want to do by way of caliber in the 300AAC.

Coming in around $1200 for upper, lower and a Guy Seals tweaked trigger group, PLUS the need for powered optics of some sort, add another $250 - ??? Don’t forget that $200 and 3 – 6 months wait for the ability to buy a short barreld rifle. THEN throw in $24 for every mag I empty, and I still don’t wind up with a short barreld version, or the caliber I wanted to begin with? Well Hell, sign me up! What was I thinking?

I’d even have taken a 762 x 51mm already built if I could have found one which presented at least some value and affordability.


Maybe you’d take that deal… I won’t.


So I pulled in the oars and drifted for a time to consider former,associated trails I posted here and elsewhere asking about carbine solutions. I was out numbered so I fell back. It’s called ‘strategy’..


It remains my prerogative as a human being to change or even nix the plan outright! Adults do that now and then.


See, making a sound decision takes a lot of factors, especially when you’ve been out of the loop for a few decades. It takes an open mind, flexibility and good judgement. Feasibility plays a significant role, naturally.


Finding out my plan was not feasible, nor would wind up appropriate to my initial thoughts, I had no other choice but to alter the plan to one I could live with and one which presented itself as feasible, and one especially which fulfilled the motivation behind this thread of mine…. HD support & shooting enjoyment primarily, and a shooting tax I can afford.


Sorry. Maybe next time, when the folks making the parts actually have the parts I want, and I can wait and afford to handle the operational costs better, maybe then, OK?


In the mean time, I’LL PLAY AROUND WITH THE cx 4.
__________________
Will Rogers said, "there's 3 sorts of people in this world, those who learn by books, those who learn by the experiences of others, and those who just have to pee on the electric fence every now and then."

.... for me, life becomes less and less shocking with every pull of the trigger.
Blindjim is offline  
Old April 27, 2012, 11:28 AM   #21
tirod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1,217
Gosh, you post longer winded diatribes than I do.

Here's the point: Title of post is: Help please I need to build and AR or M4! Result: bought a CX4.

Why? Some maker didn't immediately reply to an email? Ok, move on. There's two dozen to go. Ammo costs too high? Anything but surplus is commercial, period. You either shoot taxpayer financed military caliber ammo that is outdated, overruns, reject, or import - or pay commercial rates like everyone else.

The facts don't change to accommodate you, you consider the facts and then decide.

What range and target determine what cartridge, not popularity, Press, or prestige. If expense is a consideration, that will limit choice, too. But when range and target aren't known, spelled out, and made the goal, then aimless drifting in the aisles of a gun store is the result. Even when it's narrowed down to an AR. They can do a wide variety of shooting depending on how it's set up.

Don't blame us for throwing your hands up in the air and giving up. You didn't listen and consider what was being said.

Anyone who wants to do ANYTHING has to accept that the current state of the art will not allow adopting all the best that might come to be - it's a snapshot of what is offered commercially on the market at the time.

And as that process unfolds, yes, new understandings come about. The release of a BCM grip recently made me think about replacing the Tango Down I have. Of course, the net result would be the expense of another $30 and absolutely no measurable improvement whatsoever. I just might like the "feel."

Next month, something else. The market always has something else.

Overall, I got the gun built, it shoots, and a AR that shoots met the goal. Did the price of ammo at $4 for five rounds stop me? No, it was CHEAPER than the ammo I buy for my .30-30. Point being, informed perspective has a lot to do with making decisions.

I studied, researched, and compared the data with the desired end goal in building the gun, built it, shot it, and use it.

It's called commitment, and the price to do it was met. I had to sell off other stuff to finance it, as NONE of the funds could come out of a paycheck. And didn't.

I decided I would rather have the functioning AR of my choice, rather than the things I had, and disposed of them. In one perspective, the gun was free. My net worth in possessions as expressed on dollars didn't change.

Anybody can do that - if they commit to the goal and accept that reality will force some choices. Sticking to a fantasy view of not getting anything if I can't have what I want is just another way of saying I wasn't committed and didn't want to actually do it.

No problem with that, I've done it. Precisely why I studied it for a year on the net before jumping in. I read, searched, and thought about it. When an answer didn't immediately seem obvious, I gave it a week or two.

Some took months.

The gun got built anyway.

It's not exactly the way I want it.

It shoots anyway.

That's better than not having one.

It's an AR, I put together myself, and that met the goal, in time to use it when I planned.

Success.

Not substitute.

It's not for me to decide if getting a substitute is ok - nor is doing nothing a bad choice.

But a substitute is not necessarily success at meeting the goal.

Having a working AR was for me.

I wouldn't accept any other result.

Does writing like this really make it more valuable?

I don't think so.

That's why I don't usually do it.

Keeping a post to within the borders of one screen means it gets read.

Slinging it out over screenfuls, not so much.

On the internet, white space is death.

It lacks depth or data.

Empty disc space.

And it looks it.

That's why the general guideline is think twice, post once.
tirod is offline  
Old April 27, 2012, 11:47 AM   #22
Marquezj16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2011
Posts: 2,088
Nice post tirod.
Marquezj16 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14176 seconds with 9 queries