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Old April 18, 2012, 02:25 PM   #76
jmr40
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Under normal circumstances a PF will feed just as reliably as CRF, and do it upside down just as well.
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With this I will contend, with push feed there isn't any accomodation to counter gravity.

With either type the cartridge does not completely snap free from the magazine feed lips until the cartridge is almost all the way into the chamber. Gravity has no chance to work.

I'll repeat, both types feed into the chamber equally well. Both types are just as reliable if clean and clean in spec ammo is used.

The CRF rifles extraction and ejection system is much more rugged and bulletproof and will continue to work with a rifle that is filthy, abused, or with muddy ammo that is loaded into the chamber. That could be an advantage when facing dangerous game, but it is a myth that a CRF feeds more reliably. I prefer CRF, but because it is a more rugged design.
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Old April 18, 2012, 04:05 PM   #77
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I f a person has hunted any type of medium or large game, it is not a big jump to hunting other types of game. They simply have to be shown where to put the bullet.
Negative ... lions, leopards and some species of bear hunt you back! Seriously, you wound a deer who cares, you wound one of the dangerous ones you have a whole new world where your skill sets are quite different, NOT SIMPLY as you have suggested. This is not a joke, these animals will kill you, and simply put, where to put a bullet on a charging lion that is a blur doesn't come simply! I have seen lions run so fast after stuff ... they are literally a blur, I am not kidding. Do not disrespect them by putting them in any parameter to compare them to hunting non-predators. That is silly by any means!

A broadside whitetail compared to a 1000 pound charging head-on Brownie, and you think it is the same?

No offense, but you may want to reconsider your thoughts with that one. But, and there always is a but in life, you still should develop the skills to handle such, as deer, and elk have attacked before. Just shooting a rifle means nothing to the skill sets we are talking about. One shot boom, take your eyes off the target to rack another, and then line up the scope ... NO, that don't work in the long grass or the elders of Alaska.

A lion can cover a football field in less than 4 seconds, at 20 yards we are talking parts of seconds ... you wouldn't even get your rifle to your shoulder. They are not like a car coming at you at 45mph, they are bouncing up and down whilst going side to side with each paw digging and kicking up dirt to launch, all you see is tawny colors and teeth! Bears busting out of the brush are similar ... a 'Joe' deer or elk hunter wouldn't even get a shot off or be in a position to do so in most cases. This is a hard skill to acquire, and it takes years to develop ... it is not something that should be excused with such disrespect...

This is where EXPERIENCE comes in!
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Old April 18, 2012, 04:29 PM   #78
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keep in mind though that you can go on 20 safaris and still never aquire those skills. We were at a linebaugh seminar once where they had a charging bear target. these guys are some of the best handgun shots in the world but even that target of a bear comming at them would put so much pressure on them that many couldnt even put a shot on the target let alone a kill shot. I personaly think its more of your mental makeup then it is how well you or your rifle shoots and it sure aint going to make a pinch whether its a remington or a ruger or a mauser! I guess thats why were not dangerous game guides and why there nessisary on a dangerous game hunt.
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Old April 18, 2012, 05:06 PM   #79
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keep in mind though that you can go on 20 safaris and still never aquire those skills.
This is absolutely true! One of the most famous/notorious PH's is Cotton Gordon, who I knew personally in Colorado. He said ... here I go with a friend said story ... some guys, mainly very rich, some from the middle east of high level of society ... show up with a double-rifle they have never shot, or shot any gun, but want to hunt elephants...

I am mainly talking about self-defense situations where you have to handle it yourself, and lions would not be the case for most of us. We have to have Pros with us while in most African Countries, and Alaska if hunting situations for dangerous game if you do not have relatives as I do there Self-defense situations you probably will be without a Pro in most cases...
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Old April 18, 2012, 05:42 PM   #80
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Whatever you get, be sure it works.
An Intrepid Nimrod here bought a major big name gunzine endorsed multi kilobuck CRF. It just HAD to be better than the Remington he took to Africa the first time, right?
Wrong.
It would not feed much of anything, never mind controlled. The maker was not much help, he replaced a bad part with a bad part. Eventually FLG spent a lot of time making a different model's magazine follower fit and get rounds up and aimed at the chamber.

Being a target rather than game shooter I always say there is a special name for people who enter a match with untried gear: Loser.
In Africa or Alaska it could be worse - Dinner.
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Old April 18, 2012, 08:16 PM   #81
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Some folks do it because they Don't know better ...
If you read my post you will see that it was SPECIFICALLY oriented at the idea that someone would go to hunt dangerous game in Africa with a gun that

"they truly believe is inferior"
"knowing it to be inferior"
"they believe to be inferior"
"they actually believe is not up to the task"
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Everyone is not the same, which your premise is based on... Period...
Your response and the quote that you responded to weren't about "everyone", they were about one specific person.

The initial comment was that Potterfield, "a highly skilled professional gunsmith" carried a push feed to Africa. The implication being that he knows about the two different actions and still chose the "inferior" one. You responded saying that he could afford that luxury because he had a PH to back him up.

I'm saying that doesn't hold water because it's doubly illogical for someone to carry a rifle they truly believe is inferior to Africa to hunt dangerous game.

Of course, people who don't know better might do foolish things, but no one is saying that Potterfield doesn't know anything about guns/rifles. It would be ludicrous to even make an argument along those lines.

Which means Potterfield doesn't really believe that the push feed is inferior or he wouldn't have taken one to Africa to hunt dangerous game unless he's simultaneously logical and illogical and simultaneously cares a lot about hunting and doesn't care about hunting.
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THE POINT OF THE POST IS YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE ON THE SUBJECT MATTER. IF YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED TENNIS, MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T POST AN OPINE ON HOW TO SERVE LIKE Björn Borg!
But if you know someone with lots of experience, it would certainly make sense to ask him and then post HIS personal opinion. I believe that is a much closer analogy to what the person actually did since he was quoting the opinion of someone who had been to Africa "just about every year".
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This is where EXPERIENCE comes in!
Everybody who has killed a lion has killed at least one lion without experience. That's the way it goes.
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...had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag.
Let's try this a third time. What kind of problems?
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Old April 18, 2012, 11:11 PM   #82
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When I was shooting in South Africa in the late '90's, I asked some of the old timers who lived and hunted there about Winchester 70's, both controll feed pre '64;s and the later push feed post '64 actions as well as the Rem. 700 in large bore dangerous game rifles. They all said the pre '64 Winchesters and other Mauser style controlled feed actions were preferred by most. But the Remington' worst problems were extractors breaking and recoil lugs bending from the big bore calibers; they were not all that popular.
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Old April 18, 2012, 11:54 PM   #83
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there are valid points that the push feed is not unreliable. They both, IMO, put the cartridge in the chamber without fail.



I use a .22 lr bolt that is controlled feed. Emptying it is a matter of running the bolt back and forth until the magazine is empty and the chamber has no round visible in it.

My brother left a round in the magazine of my 700 once. Without watching the whole process, I worked the bolt a couple of times, but the round in the magazine was pushed into the chamber and not extracted. I didn't see that as I did it, and forgot that the bolt of that rifle wasn't like the bolt in the rest of my rifles. After one last look at the action, I closed the bolt, aimed it downrange and pulled the trigger.

DAMN!!!! THERE WAS A BULLET IN IT!

I like controlled feed especially for that reason.
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Old April 19, 2012, 01:10 AM   #84
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This is a hard skill to acquire, and it takes years to develop
And yet, as in all things, there is a first time. Your argument is that there never should be a first time, because the hunter doesn't have the experience.
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Old April 19, 2012, 01:24 AM   #85
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I had to use "Push feed" with the game shooting back. I don't remember anybody wanting a control feed bolt action over the service rifle.
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Old April 19, 2012, 10:05 AM   #86
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The CRF rifles extraction and ejection system is much more rugged and bulletproof and will continue to work with a rifle that is filthy, abused, or with muddy ammo that is loaded into the chamber. That could be an advantage when facing dangerous game, but it is a myth that a CRF feeds more reliably. I prefer CRF, but because it is a more rugged design.
This is true but it is also true that rifles have been made that are push feeds and still have the Mauser-type extractor/ejector "more rugged design" (i.e., the original Ruger Model 77).
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Old April 19, 2012, 04:23 PM   #87
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"a highly skilled professional gunsmith"
That is right, that is what Potterfield is!

A piano maker does not make a piano player either....

Some can make them, some can play them.

Rifles are no different!

I take it you are a Spock fan, using logic where no logic is ... we are talking facts not theory!

Cops that only use logic never catch the good bad guys, because they are not logical or they wouldn't be a bad guy in the first place!!!

Live long and prosper!

You are funny!
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Old April 19, 2012, 05:50 PM   #88
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A piano maker does not make a piano player either....
No, but a piano maker is someone who understands how pianos work, and that's why it's appropriate to point it out in Potterfield's case.

We are talking facts, and Potterfield is someone who understands the facts of how rifles work. Yet he still chose to take a rifle action you consider "inferior" to Africa to hunt dangerous game.
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You are funny!
People tell me that all the time. I tell them that looks aren't everything!
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...had problems with a few push feeds to include my Custom shop KS Remington 350 mag.
What kind of problems have you had with push feed rifles?
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Old April 19, 2012, 09:36 PM   #89
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For those Interested

This is for those interested, because it has made the post more entertaining, at Mr Potterfields expense. The Remington 700 belongs to him, and is the one he showed on the interview I watched. He calls it his Nearly Perfect Safari Rifle.
Myself I would prefer Controlled Feed, but I have a couple or Rifles I wish Larry would tweek for me.

The Rifle in the Video belongs to Mr Potterfield.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF65ycD7Q50


I Edited my post because this Video explains Larrys Rifle Better, Enjoy

Last edited by TX Hunter; April 19, 2012 at 09:58 PM.
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Old April 20, 2012, 09:18 AM   #90
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If your so worried about reliability then why are you shooting some other guy's custom loads? Also you were asking about a shoot gun bead on a lever gun a while back for close up work, what kinda lever gun did you find that was "CRF"?
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Old April 20, 2012, 09:53 AM   #91
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GUV,

You posted above:

"If your so worried about reliability then why are you shooting some other guy's custom loads? Also you were asking about a shoot gun bead on a lever gun a while back for close up work, what kinda lever gun did you find that was "CRF"?

All of the Savage 99 lever action rifles are control round feed!

Here are some real hunting rifles. These rifles were not stamped out or made as cheap as possible. A hunter would have pride carrying one.

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Old April 20, 2012, 10:08 AM   #92
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Savage 99

Hey whats that sporter on the bottom ? It kind of looks like a Modified Nagant, but Im not sure, Its a nice looking Rifle. Infact all of the Rifles Pictured are nice looking, and you are right, Im a hunter and would be proud to carry any of them.
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Old April 20, 2012, 10:21 AM   #93
Jim Watson
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You're joshin' me, aren't you?
It is, like the other two bolt actions, a Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
All four rifles share one thing... a rotary magazine.
W.D.M. Bell really liked the MS but moved on because of poor quality Austrian ammunition.
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Old April 20, 2012, 10:45 AM   #94
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Those four rifles are on a bench at the range. When I go to the range I usually take four rifles.

The top rifle is a Brno 22F 8X57 with a 2.5-8 Kahles scope.
Next is a MS 30-06 with a Leu. 3.5-10.
Then my most used woods rifle, my 99F .358 W. 2-7 Leu.
Last is a MS full stocked carbine .358 W. 2.5-8 Conquest.
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Old April 20, 2012, 01:41 PM   #95
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The lever gun in question was a Marlin 45-70, I have 2 99's (an A .308 and a C 7mm08) and knew they where CRF. The 7-08 made me start handloading due to poor accuracy of the only factory load available 25 years ago. I would like to see Savage, now that they are back on their feet start producing the 99 again.
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Old April 20, 2012, 05:17 PM   #96
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What kind of problems have you had with push feed rifles?
The problem with my 350 Rem. Mag KS, is I have on certain occasions had the round jam up against the feed ramp, probably when under stress if I recall correctly, trying to go fast! I didn't have many problems with any of push feed Winchesters, which were a few in various calibers.

I don't dislike push feed rifles, I just trust CRF more in dangerous situations. I loved my Weatherby 300 made in the 60s, etc...

I may take a few rounds out with my video camera and work the 350 KS a bit at speed and see what happens. If I trusted it I would drop the scope, and it is a nice scope setup, and put Ghost Rings on it for bear protection this summer in Alaska while fishin'! The Kevlar stock, one piece scope mounts, make for a very light package with some punch!
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Old April 20, 2012, 05:23 PM   #97
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If your so worried about reliability then why are you shooting some other guy's custom loads? Also you were asking about a shoot gun bead on a lever gun a while back for close up work, what kinda lever gun did you find that was "CRF"?
Good questions my friend!

When I moved back east from Colorado I sold so much stuff, such as my reloading bench to my hunting buddy. My shootin' bud here is setting up a nice station and I may get back to it. But a good point indeed!

The lever gun is a Browning 450 Marlin, BLR takedown I gave to my son. He needs it to pack in small aircraft, etc. It is a handy rifle. When I go there he carries that one, and I carry my CZ 550, 450 Lott! I was considering buying my own lever 45/70 and doing the bead thing. Nice lever guns, if actually facing a big, angry bear, you betcha I would wish I had my CRF rifle!

I just trust those hefty CRF rifles ... bad habits from knowing, and hunting with African Pros! It is like my old S&W model 19, then they made us carry the S&W 9mm auto, which worked well, but, and there always is a but in life, when faced with an armed suspect I always longed for the trusty model 19 again!
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Old May 1, 2012, 08:46 PM   #98
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This is for those interested, because it has made the post more entertaining, at Mr Potterfields expense. The Remington 700 belongs to him, and is the one he showed on the interview I watched. He calls it his Nearly Perfect Safari Rifle.
Nice rifle. I would love to have it for deer and elk, but not for buff or lion! I tend to go with riflemen who actually killed many, many dangerous animals, not a few on a well to do holiday in the long grass.

Cotton Gordon, Jim Carmichel, to start! There is a big difference in experience and theory, experience is the side I stand on every time!
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Old May 1, 2012, 10:06 PM   #99
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Beddy-bye time for this thread. Rest assured, dearly beloved, it will come around again, and won't come any closer to being settled than it has before.
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