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Old April 7, 2012, 06:12 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortwave
...the necessity to use violence in self defense should be weighed after all the facts are gathered...
"Should"? What does "should" have to do with anything? This is real life.
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Old April 7, 2012, 06:45 PM   #27
shortwave
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Quote:
"Should"? What does "should" have to do with anything? This is real life.
Unfortunately you are correct Frank Ettin.

This IS real life and unfortunately, in real life, some people don't need all the facts. Just the ones they hear and choose to believe. This has been proven time and time again right here on TFL with members claiming guilt or innocents of a person from what they've heard in the media. The media of all places.

Getting all the facts before jumping to conclusions should be the way it works but your right, this is real life.
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Old April 7, 2012, 10:59 PM   #28
Gary L. Griffiths
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I think a lot of the questions about the Florida SYG law revolve around the provision that:

Quote:
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
IMHO, this is one of the most important provisions of the law. It protects someone with a reasonable claim of self-defense from the expenses of defending his or her actions in court. While this is in some respects a laudable attempt to protect the innocent, it seems to substitute the findings of investigating police and prosecutors for those of a jury.

In the Zimmerman-Martin incident, it appears there are substantial questions regarding the facts of the case which should be presented to a jury.
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Old April 8, 2012, 07:05 AM   #29
Cascade1911
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....it seems to substitute the findings of investigating police and prosecutors for those of a jury.
Isn't this the case with the majority of criminal proceedings. Law enforcement first ascertains the probability that a crime has been committed.
Police see a man climbing out of a broken store window and arrest him on suspicion of burglary vs they see a man two blocks away from a store with a broken window and don't arrest him. First man goes before the jury and second one does not.
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Old April 8, 2012, 07:28 PM   #30
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L. Griffiths
I think a lot of the questions about the Florida SYG law revolve around the provision that:

Quote:
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
IMHO, this is one of the most important provisions of the law. It protects someone with a reasonable claim of self-defense from the expenses of defending his or her actions in court. While this is in some respects a laudable attempt to protect the innocent, it seems to substitute the findings of investigating police and prosecutors for those of a jury.
I don't think so. Other than a brief detention, the police in general cannot arrest anyone without having sufficient probable cause to persuade a judge or magistrate to issue an arrest warrant. It appears that ALL the Florida law is trying to do is prevent the police from jumping the gun (pardon the expression) and arresting someone before they have established probable cause.

I don't see that as a bad thing ...

And juries don't establish probably cause (unless there's a grand jury involved). If a case gets to a trial before a jury, someone has long since determined that there was probable cause for an arrest and charges.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; April 9, 2012 at 08:32 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old April 8, 2012, 08:13 PM   #31
shortwave
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Quote:
I don't think so. Other than a brief detention, the police in general cannot arrest anyone without having sufficient probably cause to persuade a judge or magistrate to issue an arrest warrant. It appears that ALL the Florida law is trying to do is prevent the police from jumping the gun (pardon the expression) and arresting someone before they have established probably cause.

I don't see that as a bad thing ...
I don't see this as a bad thing either.

I think a point to remember is just cause LE doesn't find sufficient evidence for an arrest in the initial interview, DOES NOT mean the investigation is over and they won't find sufficient evidence for an arrest at a later date.
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Old April 10, 2012, 01:35 PM   #32
Glenn E. Meyer
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Once again folks:

Please hear me. We will not discuss the details of the Zimmerman matter.

Speculation on conspiracies to do X, Y or Z or secret governmental motives don't do us any good. Wait the till the DA decides before intuiting motive.

Had to delete one like that.

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Old April 11, 2012, 11:16 AM   #33
C0untZer0
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I beleive that the big divide on this law and laws like it, is an ideological one.

There are people who beleive that individuals cannot be trusted, that they run amok. But the actions of groups - mitigated by a group decision making process, can be trusted and yield a better result.

It's about power being aggragated at the individual level or power being aggragated at the societal level.

The Florida legislation limits what a society can do to an individual by requiring probable cause before an arrest.

The people who don't like the idea of empowered individuals really hate that provision because it makes it very difficult for the masses to enforce their will upon those whom they disagrre with. It makes it difficult for them to punish a shooter they don't like.
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Old April 12, 2012, 10:51 PM   #34
Al Norris
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One warning too many.

One deleted post too many.

Before I start banning folks, this one is done.
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