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Old April 10, 2012, 10:08 AM   #1
dyl
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Disagreement: raising POI

Hey all,

Situation: 125 grain FMJ 38 special shoots low out of snubbie. Unique powder.

I received advice from a good friend to:
1) purchase a separate roll crimp die so I can crimp more heavily
2) switch to Bullseye powder for a faster / more complete burn.

I'm not quite sure that these two things would raise POI.
A heavier crimp - maybe it would delay acceleration of the bullet and therefore delay bullet exit from the barrel. It would also raise pressure.

But Bullseye powder? It burns faster than unique, generally performs well for target loads (so I hear) but faster burning would propel the bullet out of the barrel sooner. If I'm not mistaken, the thinking behind switching to a faster burning powder is if my shots were displaying weak velocity. But I don't think my low shots are due to bullet drop at 5 yards.

So did that advice make sense to follow?

What can compensate for low POI due to lightweight bullets?
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Old April 10, 2012, 10:18 AM   #2
mrawesome22
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Try a heavier bullet.
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Old April 10, 2012, 10:25 AM   #3
AlaskaMike
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Neither of those two things will have any effect on POI. Mrawesome22 has the answer--use a heavier bullet.
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Old April 10, 2012, 10:46 AM   #4
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Quote:
use a heavier bullet.
+1. Right Answer. .... or it that is 'the' load you will always use, start filing on the front sight to bring up the POI. Personally, I'd just load 158s.
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Old April 10, 2012, 10:54 AM   #5
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I concur. Use a heavier bullet. My revolvers tend to shoot low with light bullets and the sights on that .38 are probably regulated for heavier bullets. I'd try a 158 and see what happens.
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Old April 10, 2012, 11:03 AM   #6
Jim243
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The guys above are right, a heavier bullet will bring your POI higher.

BUT for 38 special a 125 grain bullet is not light for caliber. Snub nose you say, you are using a 6 o'clock hold, try a dead on bullseye hold instead that will bring your POI up.

Next suggestion is your OAL, is it too far out? If you have the safety factors on your side, bring your OAL in a little bit say 0.05 shorter. But be careful on this one, you want to bring your pressure up, but not so that it becomes un-safe. Work your loads up from Min to Max, slowly and check each shot for over-pressure.

Jim
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Old April 10, 2012, 02:31 PM   #7
dyl
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Alright then, seems like the prevalent opinion is that there is not a whole you can do to raise POI (ballistically speaking, not aim/sight picture) for a given bullet weight.

I won't expect a miracle, but I do have a couple boxes I made up of reduced OAL and slightly heavier crimp. I can't really crimp well with this combo bullet seater/roll crimp. It crimps so lightly that when I have had to pull a bullet, it took only 2 -3 wrist flicks with a kinetic bullet puller held between my thumb and index finger. Yet no jams at the range. But any more crimp and the cases will crumple. Just FYI if you're curious, Lee states min OAL 1.44 and max OAL 1.55. My initial OAL was 1.470 and my new reduced OAL is 1.455

But if POI stays the same I'm okay with it.

Jim, I remember from the other thread about holding high. (was that you or someone else mentioning it?) - At first I was going to practice a different sight picture seeing as how these are unconventional sights. But after thinking about it, I'd rather do Kentucky Elevation than destroy what I've burned into my mind about proper sight picture.

Then when these lighter bullets run out, 158 grain here I come! My only experience with 158 grains are S&B and I have to say they sting a little. Hmmm. Maybe something less than 158. Maybe 140-something

Interestingly, I tried a couple rounds of what had been my carry ammo for a couple years. It's Remington SJHP 38 special + P in 125 grain. But somehow it shoots a little higher than my reloads, but still low. After I've got this sorted out I'll be switching out my carry ammo to something that shoots POA. - elevation wise at least.

Thanks for the responses.
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Old April 10, 2012, 02:32 PM   #8
Rifleman1776
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An the reason to raise the POI is?????
Snubbies are used at ranges aproximating the width of a poker table.
Point and shoot. Bad guys ain't 'X's at 50 yards.
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Old April 10, 2012, 03:23 PM   #9
markr
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And you are a far better natural aim pointing from the hip as if you are pointing with your finger than trying to line up a sight picture under stress. And getting the gun knocked out of your hand or shot in the process.
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Old April 10, 2012, 03:40 PM   #10
rclark
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Quote:
An the reason to raise the POI is?????
For me, it is nice to have a gun shoot to POA regardless if snubbie or not. For example, I like to target practice with my CC .44Spec Bulldog out to 70+ yards.... for fun . If if was shooting 4" low at 5 yards, 70 yards would be .... Well, you get the picture. Again, nice to have a gun that shoots to POA regardless of it's real intended use!
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Old April 10, 2012, 04:12 PM   #11
m&p45acp10+1
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If the factory ammo stings a bit then give 158 grain bullet with Trail Boss a go round. Not only does it reduce recoil, and give great case fill, it also burns super clean even at low velocities. I shoot a lot of 158 grain LSWC with 3.8 grains of Trail Boss using small rifle primers. I Fired quite a few of them in a friends air weight snubbie, they shot to POA and were quite managable, no discomfort at all.
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Old April 12, 2012, 02:38 PM   #12
dyl
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Part of my thinking about raising POI has to do with RClark's comment - It's good to know that if I do my part the results will show. It's a challenge and I'd have to think that improving with a snub nose would improve my marksmanship in general. (that trigger!) If I don't get recognized more for working harder, why bother? If my shots are going to be all over the place, why bother trying harder? (I'm lazy) - But the good news is that the groups are tight, it was just the elevation.

The other thing is that the groups were 3.5 inches (center of the group) low at 5 yards. The lowest individual shots were a little over 4 inches low. That's pretty low to me at such a close range. I'd think that 3.5-4 inches could potentially miss a vital target that otherwise would have hit. And under stress if I do manage to use sights (IF) I probably won't remember my Kentucky Elevation.

In the warmer weather this little snub nose will likely be my EDC the majority of days. So whether it's 7 yards to poker table distance I'd better be happy with my shot placement.

Oh yes, my indoor range has a funny rule (first I'd ever heard of it) - that the minimum shooting distance past the firing line / counter top is at 5 yards. I couldn't practice closer if I wanted to

markr + Rifleman - I haven't really tried point shooting. Every time a point shooting thread appears it's really controversial and draws a lot of flak. I wonder if my range doesn't have a rule about that too.

M&P45 - I'd heard of trail boss. Why a small rifle primer? And what company's cast bullets do you use? I've looked at bulletsdirect.com and mastercast. And I've heard of missouri bullet.
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Old April 12, 2012, 02:46 PM   #13
m&p45acp10+1
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I use the small rifle primers instead of small pistol because during the great shortage. They were all I had. Since they worked so well I still use them. Makes buying easier when I only have to buy one type.

As far as bullets I used Percision Delta while I was waiting on funds, and shipment for my own mold. The mold I use is the Lee 158 LSWC Tumble Lube mold. They shoot great. In fact better than I will ever be able to milk them for.
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