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Old March 22, 2012, 03:31 AM   #76
darkgael
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.357

Quote:
357 wasmore than capable 125 years ago and advancesin ballistics,materialsand construction have made it even more effective over the years. the deer sure haven't gotten larger, tougher, smarter, or purchased kevlar,
.357 magnum in 1887?
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Old March 23, 2012, 12:13 PM   #77
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Yea; considering the 357 magnum didn't get introduced until 1934, I'd say that there isn't a lot proof about what was acceptable 125 years ago.

Now; having said that, I believe that with the proper 357 magnum ammo, in a rifle, it can be very effective on white tail deer out to 100 yards. Their 180 grain out of an 18" carbine will go more than 1800 fps and 1300ft/lbs. At 100 yards, it's still around 1500 fps and 900 ft/lbs. The 158 grain is 200 fps faster. In my 24" octagon Rossi lever action, with the 180 grain, I can get right at 2000 fps and about 1600 ft/lbs out of the barrel. "According to my chrono on speed and some math". At 100 yards, I'm still getting around 1600 fps and 1000 ft/lbs. That's with 180 grain LFN.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with deer hunting whitetail or mule at that distance with that ammo. Anyone who says differently simply is living in the past and is trying to compare traditional handgun 357 mag ammo out of a 3-4" barrel. They simply don't know what's available and they are using bad data. Most states that allow deer hunting with handgun calibers like the 357 magnum, for humane kills, require a minimum of 500 ft/lbs remaining energy at 100 yards. BuffaloBore in a 24" has twice that at 100 yards. Even in an 18" barrel it's close to 900 ft/lbs. Speed and weight formulate energy. On a white tail deer, I'd feel comfortable with anything 750 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards. For mule deer, I'd want 900-1000 ft/lbs at 100 yards. I wouldn't shoot any of them past 100 yards. Plus, I don't scope lever actions, so 100 yards is about the end of my accuracy range with open sites for hunting. Target shooting I can go further.

Anyway; if you use ammo like BuffaloBore for hunting, then it's fine to use a 357 magnum to 100 yards. I'd use the 180 grain because it's solid. Their 158 grain is a hollow point. Still effective, just that I prefer the lead flat nose. If you use traditional handgun cowboy or personal defense ammo, then you have no business out there deer hunting.
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Old March 23, 2012, 01:59 PM   #78
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Anyone who claims that a .357 carbine or rifle shooting appropriate bullets isn't enough for whitetails out to 150 yards should avoid guns at all cost. Sometimes I think we should have a basic test prior to being able to buy a gun. Maybe something like 2+2=4, True or false? Might help.....

LK
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Old March 23, 2012, 03:57 PM   #79
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Anyone who claims that a .357 carbine or rifle shooting appropriate bullets isn't enough for whitetails out to 150 yards should avoid guns at all cost. Sometimes I think we should have a basic test prior to being able to buy a gun. Maybe something like 2+2=4, True or false? Might help.....
Now Larry, we all know that it takes a huge amount of muzzle energy to kill a deer. The more the better. That way we can hit them anywhere and knock them down and the shock of the bullet will drop them dead in their tracks. More muzzle energy makes up for shooting skill and weak, anemic firearms like the 357 mag. If you shoot them in the lungs or heart with a puny 357 mag they'll run away and you'll never get them. I know this for a fact, I read it on the internet and now I'm an expert. Someday I'll actually shoot a deer and prove it to you.
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Old March 23, 2012, 05:05 PM   #80
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The OP is probably some kid yanking your chain. He started the same thing on on a hunting forum I look in on. Judging by all the deer I see around where I live, and all the deer I shot that were already hit, I would have to say there is no caliber big enough for deer with some people.
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Old March 23, 2012, 07:37 PM   #81
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Guy I know with bought a .300 RUM for deer hunting. I just shake my head. Are deer armor plated now?
Most shots in the area he hunts are under 75 yards.
It boggles my mind.
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Old March 23, 2012, 08:50 PM   #82
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Sir....He must like a sore shoulder!
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Old March 23, 2012, 11:41 PM   #83
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.300 RUM for Deer ?

Geahuooooolly Andy, themans sho has som Bigg deer in dat thur cuuntrie. Whyans themans needs a .300 RUM ta kill em.
You have to be kidding, are you really serious?
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Old March 24, 2012, 08:15 PM   #84
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Of course you are serious. I keep forgetting that I don't like to discuss hunting with anyone that does not have a bunch of grey hair. I reach for either a 40 year old .308 or a 70 year old .300savage whenever I get a chance to go deer or elk hunting here in the greater northwest. The younguns all tell me how old fashioned I am and out of date. They seem to think you have to be using the latest space age, computer designed, klingon ultra mag, death ray, semi-auto, super-gun. My "sometimers" had me there for a minute, forgot how old I is. The funny part of the whole deal is 3 out 4 times I go out hunting, I bring one back. The younguns round here have all the latest weapons, GPS's, RVs, Laser range finders, and assorted items. They seem to go for days/weeks with all this stuff and all they bring home is a bad hangover. I guess I'll keep on getting older and outdated. And making senile statements like "Yes, you can kill a deer with 357mag if, you use the right bullet and put it in the right place". Same thing is true of .308, 30-06, 45-70, or the latest Klingon super-mag death ray......just rambling.....
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Old March 24, 2012, 08:42 PM   #85
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Yep, dead serious. I polled 5 of my coworkers what they use to hunt deer. This is in Wisconsin "up north" where most of the hunting is in wooded areas. A shot longer that 75 yards is rare, according to these guys. Here's what they use...
.300 RUM
.300 Win Mag
7mm Mag
.303 British (a Lee Enfield of some sort)
.300 Win Mag

To be fair, the last guy hunts elk out west, which is why he bought the .300 Win Mag. But, that said, he also owns a .30-30 and a .30-06. Why on earth he's taking out a .300 Win Mag for deer is beyond my understanding.
I've heard them complaining on multiple occasions about the problems they encounter with their big guns on shots under 75 yards...

Sorry to derail the thread... back on topic, a .357 bullet in the vitals will kill a deer just as dead as anything else.
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Old March 25, 2012, 06:05 PM   #86
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Quote:
.300 RUM
.300 Win Mag
7mm Mag
.303 British (a Lee Enfield of some sort)
.300 Win Mag
You have to give these badly misguided individuals credit for one thing, at least. they are serious about making sure the thing's dead.

I'd like to remind the group that there is no such thing as overkill. Dead is still dead. The only really good reasons to turn aside from magnums are recoil, expense, and possible damage to meat.

At short range, a 30-06 or even the .303 enfield will be almost equally effective as an ultramag for a deer cartridge. They will both reliably kill the heck out of the critter.

I'm of the opinion that minimum 2,500 fps, 100 grain bullet, 6 mm, and good quality soft points are what should be used on deer, and deer at long range need to have increased velocity and a good flat trajectory to eliminate error in distance judgement.

.357 in a rifle with a 180 grain game load comes into that category. I'm still never going to shoot a deer with it unless it is my only option.
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Old March 26, 2012, 05:34 AM   #87
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Quote:
.300 RUM
.300 Win Mag
7mm Mag
.303 British (a Lee Enfield of some sort)
.300 Win Mag

A general question here. Do these rounds even expand in deer or is the flesh travel length to short? No use having them expand in the woods beyond.

7
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Old March 26, 2012, 08:35 AM   #88
chadstrickland
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Lol I just did the same...although I have more than 5..

22lr from bathroom window lol I know ( not me..no window in that room)
3030 lever
243
222
30 06 ( swears by it and ask me to tell yall its the best)
Another 22lr
9mm glock
223 ar
270 handy rifle
22lr
17hmr
12ga
.....
Mine is my ar15 223

No 357...

But I think it would work fine if the shooter did his part
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Old April 11, 2012, 09:23 AM   #89
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Hi fellas,

While doing a search on this topic ( I too have an H&R .357 ), I ran into this thread, and this one: http://www.hodgdon.com/success.html. The first story is about one of Hodgdon's employee's who loaded a 180gr XTP over lil gun in an .357 handi rifle for his grandson. If this caliber (out of a rifle) was such a bad idea for deer hunting, I don't think Hodgdon would promote it. Especially seeing as how litigous our society these days.

I think if I can get the velocity up and get some decent groups, I'm goin' for it! I think the 120lb deer I usually shoot (in the woods - 100 yds MAX) would be toast.

-Kevin
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Old April 11, 2012, 09:45 AM   #90
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If this caliber (out of a rifle) was such a bad idea for deer hunting, I don't think Hodgdon would promote it.
....... because somebody selling something would never, ever, never tell you it is less than great....

Quote:
Especially seeing as how litigous our society these days.
What? Are you going to sue Hodgdon because your deer did not drop like they said it would? Good luck proving that......

For your 120 lb deer at close range, it'd probably be good enough, I'm sure ..... but when the biggest buck you have ever seen steps out 200 yards away, and stands there broadside, you will either kick yourself for not having enough gun (if you are ethical) or you will take a really marginal shot, energy-wise (if you are not) ..... a 200 yard shot is a slam dunk for an honest to goodness deer rifle.

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Old April 11, 2012, 02:33 PM   #91
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Quote:
For your 120 lb deer at close range, it'd probably be good enough, I'm sure ..... but when the biggest buck you have ever seen steps out 200 yards away, and stands there broadside, you will either kick yourself for not having enough gun (if you are ethical) or you will take a really marginal shot, energy-wise (if you are not) ..... a 200 yard shot is a slam dunk for an honest to goodness deer rifle.
Not everyone feels like they have to kill everything they see. "if it's brown it's down" gets old in a hurry. Where do you draw the line? Use a Howitzer? You sound like you're obsessed to kill everything you see. How about 400 yds? Just get a bigger gun?
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Old April 11, 2012, 03:32 PM   #92
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What will I do if I see the biggest deer of my life at 200 yds? Same thing when that happens when I'm crossbow hunting - nothing. What if I saw the biggest deer of my life at 400 yds and I had my .280 with me? Nothing - I can't accurately shoot that far regardless of what weapon I have.

I'm willing to bet all of us on here hunt for fun. If we did it out of survival, I don't think we'd spend our time on some internet forum debating which guns to buy next and so forth. We'd all have a .22, .30-06, and a 12 ga. And that would be it.


-Kevin
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Old April 11, 2012, 03:42 PM   #93
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this place is just great for cheap personal shots instead of logical arguments.

what in the world are you saying?

That bringing a 30-06 rifle into the woods in case a trophy buck presents itself at long range is stupid, and that he should instead carry a light rifle and limit himself to only 100 yards, because only morons shoot everything that they see!? That has to be the most asinine statement I've heard here so far.

I don't think that there is any question that a person carrying an accurate .357 rifle loaded with the best heavy bullet ammunition available can kill a deer at short ranges, if he is an excellent shot, and picks his shots carefully.

Unless you sit on a log watching a tiny clearing all season, that's simply not good enough! a deer rifle that can't be used when a longer shot presents itself isn't good enough. A deer rifle that can't be counted on to hit in the vitals at 200 isn't good enough. a deer rifle that doesn't present with enough energy on impact isn't good enough. If it isn't capable of a 4" or under group at the maximum range you may shoot at, you won't have any margin for personal error.

That is what this has been about all along. is a $100 single shot in a pistol cartridge with any box from walmart a good deer rifle, or is it only good if you jump through a lot of hoops and put a lot of limitations on it?

the idea of hunting is to find game and shoot it. a decent .308 range cartridge with decent optics will allow a hunter to shoot 5 feet through the woods, or even fire 300 yards down a power line easement or across a big glade.
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Old April 11, 2012, 03:54 PM   #94
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I've turned down lots of shots because I was uncomfortable about shooting at the range or for other reasons. Every time it happened, it was a reminder to me that I should do as the old african hunter said.

bring enough gun.

One thing I can assure everyone here of, you will never see a marine sniper passing up a shot because he brought a single shot .357. He will bring the best equipment, and he will "do his part" and he will take the shot, because that is the purpose.

Hunting, you go out to find the deer you want, and bring it home. If you find the deer and then don't bring it home because you deliberately handicapped yourself with a bow, that's one thing.

There's a point I'd like to make about primitive hunting. When I first went on a black powder hunt the rules were round ball and loose black powder. Now, we use pellets, saboted jacketed bullets, shotgun primers, etc. What makes the typical black powder shooter any more handicapped than a guy shooting a trapdoor springfield???

we used wooden laminated recurve 50 pound bows and wooden shafts, not the things used today.

There is honor in setting limitations and sticking in those limitations, and turning down the shot. There's nothing particularly impressive about shooting inadequate weapons and missing or wounding.
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Old April 11, 2012, 04:34 PM   #95
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I apologize guys - I didn't mean to offend anyone. That wasn't my intention.

-Kevin
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Old April 11, 2012, 05:23 PM   #96
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You didn't offend me. You are right. Carry your weapon, choose your shots, face the results.

If you want to hunt with a crossbow, hunt like you are using one. If you want to hunt with a 30-30, do the same.

Choose how you want to hunt, then hunt ethically.

Don't encourage others to hunt with crossbows, without putting out an honest and fair warning about the limitations that must be observed.

I don't consider saying "you can hunt deer with a .22lr if you do your part" to be realistic or even honest. You can bash a deer on the skull with a rock and kill it "if you do your part."

I'm so tired of hearing that meaningless phrase.
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Old April 11, 2012, 07:19 PM   #97
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I have taken several deer with my .357 Mag. However, my .357 is a Savage Model 24 which is a rifle. 50 yards MAX is my limit even if I can get the best shot off.

1200 ft-lbs is the ethical minimum for deer and I follow that rule. Even out of a rifle that energy drops quick out past 50yrd marker.
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Old April 11, 2012, 07:53 PM   #98
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Quote:
I apologize guys - I didn't mean to offend anyone. That wasn't my intention.

-Kevin
You have nothing whatsoever to apologize for...

The "holier than thou" insisting that everyone hunt the way they do, are the ones with the issues...
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