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Old March 30, 2012, 09:03 AM   #1
Johnnyboy656
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Error on eForm 4473 :confused:

A close friend recently purchased a rifle but realized he had made a mistake on the eForm 4473 after the transfer was completed. He would like to know what to do, so I am going to try and relate his situation as he explained it to me.
======
A friend of mine recently purchased a hunting rifle in VA and filled out the eForm 4473 using his VA drivers license and VA voter registration card. However, due to his job he had been moving around the East Coast for the two years after he last lived permanently in VA. However his VA ID's were the last form of ID he had acquired. He is planning on moving back to VA permanently in less than a week but at the time of purchase (one week ago), his PHYSICAL location of where he was living was not in VA. He was not sure if his VA drivers license is/was still valid at the time of purchase, though that is the only form of ID that he had (he said that the NCIS check went through and completed the sale). He has made it very clear that he wants to be compliant with the law. Before you decide to berate him in responses to this post for not being 100% certain of the law before completing the purchase of the firearm, just keep in mind that he is sincerely trying to correct the situation. He would like to correct this mistake of the eForm 4473 and be fully compliant with the law, what should he do? He suggested that he would take the gun back to the dealer and then repurchase the gun with the correct VA address that he is moving to, but we aren't sure how many problems that will stir up. We both realize that opinions expressed in response to this are not official legal guidance/council so don't feel like you are in some way obligating yourself. Advice is appreciated though.

So what do you guys think is the best course of action to correct this?
-JB
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Old March 30, 2012, 09:27 AM   #2
Code3GT
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Sounds to me like he's getting worked up for nothing.

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Old March 30, 2012, 10:50 AM   #3
dogtown tom
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He can't correct it....

Quote:
Johnnyboy656 A close friend recently purchased a rifle but realized he had made a mistake on the eForm 4473 after the transfer was completed. He would like to know what to do, so I am going to try and relate his situation as he explained it to me.
======
A friend of mine recently purchased a hunting rifle in VA and filled out the eForm 4473 using his VA drivers license and VA voter registration card. However, due to his job he had been moving around the East Coast for the two years after he last lived permanently in VA. However his VA ID's were the last form of ID he had acquired. He is planning on moving back to VA permanently in less than a week but at the time of purchase (one week ago), his PHYSICAL location of where he was living was not in VA. He was not sure if his VA drivers license is/was still valid at the time of purchase, though that is the only form of ID that he had (he said that the NCIS check went through and completed the sale). He has made it very clear that he wants to be compliant with the law. Before you decide to berate him in responses to this post for not being 100% certain of the law before completing the purchase of the firearm, just keep in mind that he is sincerely trying to correct the situation. He would like to correct this mistake of the eForm 4473 and be fully compliant with the law, what should he do? He suggested that he would take the gun back to the dealer and then repurchase the gun with the correct VA address that he is moving to, but we aren't sure how many problems that will stir up. We both realize that opinions expressed in response to this are not official legal guidance/council so don't feel like you are in some way obligating yourself. Advice is appreciated though.

So what do you guys think is the best course of action to correct this?
-JB
I don't understand why he now has a guilty concience, being that he never applied for a valid drivers license in all the other states where he's been a resident....undoubtably he's been in violation of state law as well.

The bad news:
ATF doesn't have "do overs"........your friend committed a Federal crime by falsifying information on the 4473. Your friend can't plead ignorance because the instructions to each question are right there on the Form 4474.

There is no means to erase what he has done....and that dealer will keep that 4473 on file for 20 years.

The good news:
He'll likely never get caught, unless he uses that firearm in a crime and the police recover it and trace it to him. They would then need to know that he was not actually a resident of Virginia when he acquired the firearm.
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Old March 30, 2012, 10:54 AM   #4
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Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the important issues on the 4473 is where you are living at the time of purchase, NOT where you are moving to shortly.

(had a bunch written, but deleted it after reading the previous posts)

I bow to the knowledge of Dogtown Tom, who has more experience with this than I do.
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:09 AM   #5
Fishing_Cabin
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I agree with dogtown on this one in reference to the violation. Since you did not mention the state that your friend is/was living in at the time of this purchase its hard to say beyond that. The below is from the FAQ at the ATF website.

Quote:
Q: May a licensed dealer sell a firearm to a non-licensee who is a resident of another State?
Generally, a firearm may not lawfully be sold by a licensed dealer to a non-licensee who resides in a State other than the State in which the seller’s licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensed dealer whose business is in the purchaser’s State of residence and the purchaser takes delivery of the firearm from the dealer in his or her State of residence. In addition, a licensee may sell a rifle or shotgun to a person who is not a resident of the State where the licensee’s business premises is located in an over-the-counter transaction, provided the transaction complies with State law in the State where the licensee is located and in the State where the purchaser resides.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3)]
Quote:
He was not sure if his VA drivers license is/was still valid at the time of purchase, though that is the only form of ID that he had (he said that the NCIS check went through and completed the sale).
There should be a date on the license when it expires, and secondly, you must be an actual resident of the state of VA, or just have recently moved out of state within 30 days, for the license to still be completely legal. You said that he. "had been moving around the East Coast for the two years after he last lived permanently in VA" so I dont think the following exception would help since he did not keep up some level of residence.

Quote:
If you change your residence address or alternate address to a location outside Virginia, your driver's license or photo ID card will be cancelled. Exceptions may be made for some individuals such as active duty military personnel and Virginia residents employed outside Virginia.
http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/c...update_add.asp

The expiration date should be on the bottom of the license if your friend was over 21 when he got his VA license and has the horizontal style. It should be to the right, and near the bottom of the picture if it is the vertical style for the under 18/21 age group.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; March 30, 2012 at 11:17 AM.
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Old March 30, 2012, 11:34 AM   #6
Johnnyboy656
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Follow up

All points are well taken and the guy is an idiot for not waiting the few extra days while he actually became a resident. It seems clear that there is no way to correct the mistake.

That being said, we looked at the VA residency rules (http://www.tax.virginia.gov/site.cfm...esidencyStatus) and the line "Part-Year Resident: -- A person who moves into Virginia during the year with the intent of becoming a resident, or a person who moves out of Virginia during the year to become a resident of another state, is a part-year resident for income tax purposes." Would that in any way cover this guy since he will move into VA during the year?

Also his drivers license expires in 2016, so as far as actual expiration is seems valid but because he moved out a while ago, we aren't certain if he is covered by the "Virginia residents employed outside Virginia." After he stopped working he became a student at a university in DC and DC says that students do not have residency status, so would that means he reverts to a VA resident? He kept his firearms in a storage locker in VA the entire time and they never left the state.

Not sure if this info helps clarify anything.
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Old March 30, 2012, 12:01 PM   #7
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
Also his drivers license expires in 2016, so as far as actual expiration is seems valid but because he moved out a while ago, we aren't certain if he is covered by the "Virginia residents employed outside Virginia." After he stopped working he became a student at a university in DC and DC says that students do not have residency status, so would that means he reverts to a VA resident? He kept his firearms in a storage locker in VA the entire time and they never left the state.
From my take of the exception I posted is that even if he is employed outside of the state of Virginia, he must keep some form of actual residence in Virginia.

You mention also that:
Quote:
After he stopped working he became a student at a university in DC and DC says that students do not have residency status, so would that means he reverts to a VA resident?
I think what you are looking at is if the student still had a legal residence in the state of Virginia. If he has no legal residence in the state of virginia, as in apartment, house, mobile home, etc, either owned/rented by him, or in partnership with him and another, or also living with family, then he can not claim the residence as I understand it. Also, DC can not merely deny residency status just because someone is a student. From what I take of the part I quoted it would mean to say that if you are born and raised in DC, the moment you become a student, you are no longer a resident, which would be a violation. If a person has another residence such as the family home where they lived until they moved to another state (or DC) for school, then the family home would be the legal residence, and the school residence can become a second residence.

Quote:
27 C.F.R. 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.
ATF Rul. 80-21
[Status of ruling: Active]
The Bureau has been asked to determine the State of residence of out-of-State college students for purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968. “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 C.F.R. 178.11 as the State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides in State Y he is a resident of State Y.


Applying the above example to out-of- State college students it is held, that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location they are considered residents of the State where the dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of their home State.
IMPORTANT QUESTION! Did your friend, or did your friend not, keep residence in VA? A house, apartment, living with family, etc. Some form of residence. This is a simple yes or no question.

Have an awesome, blissful, elated, and cheerful day all!

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; March 30, 2012 at 12:21 PM. Reason: cause my spelling is terrible! I admit it
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Old March 30, 2012, 12:30 PM   #8
Johnnyboy656
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Residence location

Well I live in VA, so theoretically if I said he maintained residence at my place (or he at least had the option to though he didn't physically stay here) would that cover him?
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Old March 30, 2012, 12:46 PM   #9
Fishing_Cabin
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Quote:
Well I live in VA, so theoretically if I said he maintained residence at my place (or he at least had the option to though he didn't physically stay here) would that cover him?
Keeping within the spirit and rules of this forum, since the firingline.com does not support or allow discussions of how to cover up an illegal act, please understand my answer below.

Forum Rule
Quote:
Knowingly and willfully advocating violation of a standing federal or state law (any state)
The answer is "No" it can not be used to "cover up" after the fact.

The best thing to do is be completely honest and up front.

Last edited by Fishing_Cabin; March 30, 2012 at 12:53 PM. Reason: dern my spelling...Id have someone toss me a dictionary if I knew it wouldnt hit me on the head
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Old March 30, 2012, 12:58 PM   #10
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnyboy656
Well I live in VA, so theoretically if I said he maintained residence at my place (or he at least had the option to though he didn't physically stay here) would that cover him?
So if your buddy might get tagged for lying on the 4473, you propose to compound the problem by lying for him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishing_Cabin
...firingline.com does not support or allow discussions of how to cover up an illegal act...
And that's exactly right.

So this one is done.
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