Is caliber really all that important for ccw - Page 5

ScottRiqui · March 9, 2012, 01:12 PM

Quote:

The odds of having to shoot go up in a high crime area. The ballistics don't change, though.

That's exactly what fiddletown said - the likelihood of an encounter is independent of the severity of the encounter, should it occur. I'm much less likely to fall off a bridge that has a guardrail compared to a bridge of the same height that doesn't have a guardrail, but if it happens, the outcome will be the same in either case.

**Spats McGee** · March 9, 2012, 01:19 PM

Yes, it is exactly what fiddletown said. It's the point that I had been getting at in an earlier post, but which I failed to articulate very well.

ScottRiqui · March 9, 2012, 01:31 PM

Oh crap - I missed the line in your post where you plainly said that you were agreeing with him. That's what I get for reading posts on my phone. Sorry about the misunderstanding - that's completely on me.

**Spats McGee** · March 9, 2012, 03:05 PM

It happens. No harm, no foul.

TenRing · March 9, 2012, 03:15 PM

Sure, caliber is important. There is a reason why police don't carry .22 LR pistols.

Caliber isn't the most important thing but don't fool yourself into thinking it isn't important at all.

The most important thing is to make sure that you have "A Gun" when you need it. The type, caliber, brand and color of your gun can be considered after that.

seeker_two · March 9, 2012, 11:12 PM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...2&postcount=93

Matthew261: Do you have a citation for this story? I'm surprised Ayoob was carrying a .38Spl snub....he usually carries a .357Mag if. he carries a snub.....

Mas Ayoob · March 10, 2012, 06:48 AM

Nope, that wasn't me.

seeker_two · March 10, 2012, 07:13 AM

Well....that answers my question.....

farmerboy · March 10, 2012, 03:26 PM

most likely "NO". how many instances where most of us on here had to shoot someone and find out? hardly ever happens but if all I had was a 22 I believe it would work fine even though Id rather have my 40 cal.

**Frank Ettin** · March 10, 2012, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmerboy

most likely "NO". how many instances where most of us on here had to shoot someone and find out?...

True enough. If you don't have to shoot, caliber won't matter. What if you do need to shoot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmerboy

... if all I had was a 22 I believe it would work fine even though Id rather have my 40 cal.

Well it looks like caliber matters to you if you do need to shoot. Sure, if all you have is a .22, you'd have no choice but to use it. But if you have a choice, you'd rather have something bigger.

Making do with what you have is one thing. Getting to choose what you'd rather have is another. As long as I can choose, it won't be a .22.

Single Six · March 10, 2012, 04:10 PM

In my opinion, yes, caliber counts. Of course, to be fair, so does marksmanship and tactics. Anyhow, when I look at a round of .45 ACP next to a .40 S&W and 9mm round, the size disparity always stands out. Try to chamber either a .40 or 9mm round in a .45, and they'll fall right down the barrel and out of the muzzle. Handguns aren't all that powerful anyway [compared to rifles or shotguns], so to me, it makes sense to go with the larger of the aforementioned trio. My philosophy about handguns follows the same logic that I apply to paychecks, steaks, hamburgers, locomotives, and women: Bigger is better!

farmerboy · March 10, 2012, 06:21 PM

really, you hear of someone that gets shot with a 45 five times and still runs off and other get shot with a 22 and die almost instantly. Sometimes when your times up its up. I wouldnt want to get shot with a 45 or a 22. I think 99% of the time an indiv. gets shot with whatever will be out of the fight, most BG's hear a gunshot will be leaving the other direction. Still theres those on pcp that may get shot 5-6 times with a cannon and still have to bleed out before theyre no longer a threat. But for 99.9% of us on here a 22 would be fine. But yes my duty gun is a glock 22 gen 4 and Id rather not wound someone with a 22 in a shooting, if I have to shoot someone Id rather put a end to the BG then and there and not have to pay taxes to so many who play the system. Just my opinion!

**Frank Ettin** · March 10, 2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farmerboy

really, you hear of someone that gets shot with a 45 five times and still runs off and other get shot with a 22 and die almost instantly....

One hears all kinds of things. Whether what he hears is true is another question. What it means is yet another.

But we do know some of the physiological mechanisms by which getting shot can impair someone's ability to continue fighting, and for those mechanisms caliber matters.

couldbeanyone · March 10, 2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

So while he might never need his gun, it's still possible that if he does he will need to deal with a strong, determined adversary who is under the influence of drugs and who will be difficult to stop.

Darn, I knew I should have kept my scoped Encore in 300 Win Mag. After all there was this guy on a clock tower with a scoped rifle in Texas once, so it is "possible" that I would need to carry it to offer effective return fire. After all at that range I would be totally screwed with a mere .45.

Ok, let the hysterical wailings over .380 vs. 9mm vs. 45 continue.

TenRing · March 10, 2012, 10:32 PM

If you have a gun, you will probably be ok. If you have a bigger gun with higher capacity, then you will probably be more ok.

**Spats McGee** · March 11, 2012, 09:12 AM

I look at it this way: If given no choice on carry weapon, for whatever reason, you shoots what you gets. If given a choice of what to carry, caliber counts. There's a "window" of viable choices in carry calibers. Where most posters seem to disagree (in my observation) is how large that window is, and what fits inside it. Personally, I prefer a .45, given a choice. However, if I could only carry a 9mm, I'd be comfortable with that. If I could only carry a .22LR, I wouldn't be particularly comfortable, but I'd take what I got.

Edited to add: Someone (fiddletown, I think) posted some "rules of thumb" recently that sum up my belief on SD calibers pretty well. While I was unable to locate the particular post, they went something like this:

Hits beat misses, regardless of caliber.
Big holes work better than small holes.
Many holes work better than few holes.

LockedBreech · March 12, 2012, 12:57 AM

For all the cases of someone taking a half-dozens .45s and living, or someone taking .22s and dying, it's important to remember that's the exception, and not the rule.

Driven by a skilled driver, I'm sure a Kia could beat a BMW in a race, if the BMW was driven by a rank amateur. That doesn't make the Kia a better race car.

L_Killkenny · March 12, 2012, 12:46 PM

While I won't go as far as saying caliber should have no bearing on your desision I will say there are plenty of other issues that should be thought of first. When/if the time comes that I have to pull the trigger I'd generally like to have all the benifits I can get. But the difference between carrying a .22lr or a .45acp, let alone the difference between carrying a .380 vs. 9mm vs. 45acp, aren't nearly as great as some would lead you to believe.

LK

farmerboy · March 12, 2012, 01:14 PM

when I say a 22 would do just as good as a 45 I mean to stop the threat, most will haul butt when hit with a 22 or fall to ground and flounce like a fish but the threat is still over. Maybe not dead but over. Yes everyone knows a 45 or close to it most of the times will knock someone down or end life then and there (most of the time) but in reality the 22 did just as good, it ended the threat! Even though Im like most others Id rather finish the threat not just end it!

L_Killkenny · March 12, 2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

when I say a 22 would do just as good as a 45 I mean to stop the threat, most will haul butt when hit with a 22 or fall to ground and flounce like a fish but the threat is still over. Maybe not dead but over. Yes everyone knows a 45 or close to it most of the times will knock someone down or end life then and there (most of the time) but in reality the 22 did just as good, it ended the threat! Even though Im like most others Id rather finish the threat not just end it!

I've been preaching the same thing for years. Bad guys generally don't like to get shot at. They fall and cry for mommy or they run like the wind whether it be a .22lr or a .50AE that's chuckin lead at em. But I looked at worst case scenario for me, gas station hold up. Say I'm in back getting a pop, beer or ice and someone walks in and shoots the cashier. At that point I'm cowering in the back of the store, pissin myself and trying to be invisible. But if I have a gun it's gonna be out and how confident am I gonna be in my .22? Personally, I'd be wishing I'd hired a couple dudes with MP5's to protect me (after all, how much is my life worth is an arguement some make around here

) but since that's not an option if things go bad I'd like something a little bigger.

That being said more than likely I won't have any gun let alone a great one in the million to one chance things go that sideways.

LK

**Frank Ettin** · March 12, 2012, 08:58 PM

Started getting snippy and silly -- time to quit.

March 9, 2012, 01:19 PM	#102
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,353	Yes, it is exactly what fiddletown said. It's the point that I had been getting at in an earlier post, but which I failed to articulate very well. __________________ A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills. If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman

March 9, 2012, 03:05 PM	#104
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,353	It happens. No harm, no foul. __________________ A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills. If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman

March 9, 2012, 03:15 PM	#105
TenRing Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Posts: 384	Sure, caliber is important. There is a reason why police don't carry .22 LR pistols. Caliber isn't the most important thing but don't fool yourself into thinking it isn't important at all. The most important thing is to make sure that you have "A Gun" when you need it. The type, caliber, brand and color of your gun can be considered after that. __________________ Use at your own risk. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. This could lead to serious injury or death. Void where prohibited. For entertainment purposes only. Cheer up. There is a chance that my info could actually be helpful.

March 9, 2012, 11:12 PM	#106
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 1,547	http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...2&postcount=93 Matthew261: Do you have a citation for this story? I'm surprised Ayoob was carrying a .38Spl snub....he usually carries a .357Mag if. he carries a snub..... __________________ Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......

March 10, 2012, 07:13 AM	#108
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 1,547	Well....that answers my question..... __________________ Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......

March 9, 2012, 01:31 PM	#103
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,900	Oh crap - I missed the line in your post where you plainly said that you were agreeing with him. That's what I get for reading posts on my phone. Sorry about the misunderstanding - that's completely on me.

March 10, 2012, 06:48 AM	#107
Mas Ayoob Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 239	Nope, that wasn't me.

March 10, 2012, 03:26 PM	#109
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	most likely "NO". how many instances where most of us on here had to shoot someone and find out? hardly ever happens but if all I had was a 22 I believe it would work fine even though Id rather have my 40 cal.

March 10, 2012, 04:10 PM	#111
Single Six Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2010 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,522	In my opinion, yes, caliber counts. Of course, to be fair, so does marksmanship and tactics. Anyhow, when I look at a round of .45 ACP next to a .40 S&W and 9mm round, the size disparity always stands out. Try to chamber either a .40 or 9mm round in a .45, and they'll fall right down the barrel and out of the muzzle. Handguns aren't all that powerful anyway [compared to rifles or shotguns], so to me, it makes sense to go with the larger of the aforementioned trio. My philosophy about handguns follows the same logic that I apply to paychecks, steaks, hamburgers, locomotives, and women: Bigger is better! __________________ Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."

March 10, 2012, 06:21 PM	#112
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	really, you hear of someone that gets shot with a 45 five times and still runs off and other get shot with a 22 and die almost instantly. Sometimes when your times up its up. I wouldnt want to get shot with a 45 or a 22. I think 99% of the time an indiv. gets shot with whatever will be out of the fight, most BG's hear a gunshot will be leaving the other direction. Still theres those on pcp that may get shot 5-6 times with a cannon and still have to bleed out before theyre no longer a threat. But for 99.9% of us on here a 22 would be fine. But yes my duty gun is a glock 22 gen 4 and Id rather not wound someone with a 22 in a shooting, if I have to shoot someone Id rather put a end to the BG then and there and not have to pay taxes to so many who play the system. Just my opinion!

March 10, 2012, 10:32 PM	#115
TenRing Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2009 Posts: 384	If you have a gun, you will probably be ok. If you have a bigger gun with higher capacity, then you will probably be more ok. __________________ Use at your own risk. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. This could lead to serious injury or death. Void where prohibited. For entertainment purposes only. Cheer up. There is a chance that my info could actually be helpful.

March 11, 2012, 09:12 AM	#116
Spats McGee Staff Join Date: July 28, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,353	Caliber counts I look at it this way: If given no choice on carry weapon, for whatever reason, you shoots what you gets. If given a choice of what to carry, caliber counts. There's a "window" of viable choices in carry calibers. Where most posters seem to disagree (in my observation) is how large that window is, and what fits inside it. Personally, I prefer a .45, given a choice. However, if I could only carry a 9mm, I'd be comfortable with that. If I could only carry a .22LR, I wouldn't be particularly comfortable, but I'd take what I got. Edited to add: Someone (fiddletown, I think) posted some "rules of thumb" recently that sum up my belief on SD calibers pretty well. While I was unable to locate the particular post, they went something like this: Hits beat misses, regardless of caliber. Big holes work better than small holes. Many holes work better than few holes. __________________ A gunfight is not the time to learn new skills. If you ever have a real need for more than a couple of magazines, your problem is not a shortage of magazines. It's a shortage of people on your side of the argument. -- Art Eatman Last edited by Spats McGee; March 11, 2012 at 09:21 AM.

March 12, 2012, 12:57 AM	#117
LockedBreech Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 2,308	For all the cases of someone taking a half-dozens .45s and living, or someone taking .22s and dying, it's important to remember that's the exception, and not the rule. Driven by a skilled driver, I'm sure a Kia could beat a BMW in a race, if the BMW was driven by a rank amateur. That doesn't make the Kia a better race car. __________________ Beretta PX4 .40 - Colt 1968 Detective Special .38 Spc. - Ruger LCP .380 - Daniel Defense M4V1 Carbine 5.56 - Ruger 10/22 .22LR - Remington 870 Express Tactical 12GA

March 12, 2012, 12:46 PM	#118
L_Killkenny Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,556	While I won't go as far as saying caliber should have no bearing on your desision I will say there are plenty of other issues that should be thought of first. When/if the time comes that I have to pull the trigger I'd generally like to have all the benifits I can get. But the difference between carrying a .22lr or a .45acp, let alone the difference between carrying a .380 vs. 9mm vs. 45acp, aren't nearly as great as some would lead you to believe. LK

March 12, 2012, 01:14 PM	#119
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	when I say a 22 would do just as good as a 45 I mean to stop the threat, most will haul butt when hit with a 22 or fall to ground and flounce like a fish but the threat is still over. Maybe not dead but over. Yes everyone knows a 45 or close to it most of the times will knock someone down or end life then and there (most of the time) but in reality the 22 did just as good, it ended the threat! Even though Im like most others Id rather finish the threat not just end it!

March 12, 2012, 08:58 PM	#121
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 4,986	Started getting snippy and silly -- time to quit.