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Old February 25, 2012, 10:15 AM   #1
Im a 'Pistol'
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Holding a Gun on Someone till the Police arrive , questions.

Im trying to get good specific advice on a situation I could have intervened in on at least two seperate occasions in the past.

Both involved a Man getting very physically abusive toward a woman in his car while at a stop light . It is not my nature to poke my head into other peoples business, but, now that I am licensed for CC and have taken a couple of pistol training classes...I would no longer be reluctant to intervene in what I thought was a desperate situation --- possibly life threatening or severe harm to another .

My first duty would be to phone 911 and report the incident along with a description of myself, before approaching the altercation which is underway. It is from THIS point, that id appreciate advice on the correct protocol to use when confronting the Perpetrator to immediately stop and what to do if he ignored my command . Please be specific in your advice . (ie: Would you first announce you have a gun / just pull out the gun so he can see it but not aim it at him / pull out the gun AND aim it at him / hold him at gunpoint till the Police arrive, or what ?) . Thank you.
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Old February 25, 2012, 10:21 AM   #2
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Call 911 - get the tag, vehicle make and note the description of the man being abusive. This type of situation would be difficult enough for a highly trained cop calling for backup.

No way would I try to detain someone who is driving. Way too many things could go wrong like: causing a traffic accident, getting hit by another vehicle, driver could have a hidden weapon, causing the domestic violence to escalate, etc. There are just too many way for me to end up dead, shot, run over, the cause of someone else's injury or in prison. How much harm is a man going to be able to inflict on a woman/passenger while one or the other are driving a car? That situation is going to have to wait for the professionals.
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Old February 25, 2012, 10:23 AM   #3
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duplicate
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Old February 25, 2012, 10:33 AM   #4
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It sounds like you recently received a CC permit. Walking up to a vehicle and drawing is a good way to get shot, run over, cause an accident and/or end up in court facing very serious criminal charges. Call 911. I also suggest you don't tailgate so they both can't claim you were the aggressor, and they were just playing around. Quite often the victim of domestic abuse will come to the defense of their abuser.
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Old February 25, 2012, 10:58 AM   #5
KC Rob
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^ What he said.

Pretty sure you could be in a lot of trouble for brandishing your weapon, a CCW license does not make you a junior LEO, domestic situations can very sticky and are best handled by the professionals UNLESS someone is in imminent danger of death, and I doubt that is the case if you see it happening at a stop light.

Here is a very likely situation: You observe the male driver of the vehicle in front of you getting physical with his female passenger at at traffic light. You call 911, exit your vehicle, approach the drivers window, draw your handgun and tell him stay still and that you have called the police. He complies. The police arrive and the driver AND his passenger tell them that you approached their vehicle with a drawn gun and tried to car jack them. Now you got some 'splainin' to do.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:19 AM   #6
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That's a very bad idea, for all the reasons outlined above.

I've heard LEOs tell me about intervening in domestic violence cases and having both people turn on them... if you want to do that kind of work, go to the police academy.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:24 AM   #7
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Call 911, be a good witness ...but only use lethal force if you or someone in your immediate vicinity is in imminent danger of death or severe bodily harm.

Additionally, I would not announce that I have a gun. I might unholster my gun if I had a reasonable suspicion that I might need it, but I would keep it out of view of the bad guy.
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I think that one of the notions common to the anti-gunner is the idea that being a victim is 'noble'; as if it is better to be noble in your suffering than disruptive in your own defense.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:41 AM   #8
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In general the police don't want you doing their job. As admirable as your intentions are that won't stop them from arresting you and taking away your firearm.
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Old February 25, 2012, 11:54 AM   #9
serf 'rett
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I'm guessing that either your state doesn't require a class to get a concealed carry permit or you had very poor instruction in the class. Your state laws play a large part in what is allowable and verboten. I strongly suspect that you would find yourself in serious legal trouble if you displayed, and even worse, pointed a weapon at someone without being able to clearly prove grave injury or death had occurred or was occurring.

In fact, if you happen to get involved in a “justified” shooting, you could likely end up in civil court, where your defense attorney will have a difficult time explaining your defensive mindset if the other person’s attorney happens to find out your member “name” in this forum.

Call 911. Follow from a safe distance if possible and practical. You also need to understand that the abused will often side with the abuser, for any number of reasons (avoiding additional abuse being one of those reasons!)

One further note. If you are seeing abuse at a red light, have you considered that the abused person is most likely making a choice to remain in the vehicle?
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:01 PM   #10
Im a 'Pistol'
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I agree with all of you . But what if the victim is being severely beaten with or without an object and is totally defenseless to escape ? Im not trying to play Clint Eastwood here, but arent there situations where immediate intervention is required out of concern for someones life/safety instead of waiting minutes before the Calvary arrives which might be just too darn late ? Given the ever increasing rise in violence in America, I dont think im presenting a very far-fetched scenario here ; ive already witnessed it twice in stopped vehicles with a man and woman, and a brutal fist fight on the side of a road between two men.

Assuming you HAD to directly intervene, how would handle it after 911 is called ?

Last edited by Im a 'Pistol'; February 25, 2012 at 12:23 PM.
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:09 PM   #11
Im a 'Pistol'
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I'm guessing that either your state doesn't require a class to get a concealed carry permit or you had very poor instruction in the class'

REPLY: I already said that I took a couple of gun courses which one was required for CCP . During the course, they did not get into potential life threatening situations to Others as i listed in my original post . The course was mostly on how to safely handle the pistol, how it works, how to fire it accurately , finishing up with actual target practice in the company of the Instructor .
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:25 PM   #12
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Unless the guy in your scenario is using a weapon or the woman is bleeding profusely, it’s a misdemeanor assault. Pulling a deadly weapon in response to a misdemeanor is a great way to get yourself arrested for aggravated assault.

If you’ve misjudged the situation or the woman decides to side with the guy (damn likely) or they both say you threatened them, you’re going to jail.

Call 911. Be a good witness. I keep a small HD video camera in my car for just that sort of situation.
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:36 PM   #13
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Just because you obtained a CC permit does not make you some sort of peace officer nor are you obliged to do so. I agree you need some more training if this is your mindset as you will either get yourself killed or end up in jail. Just the fact that you are scenario playing how you are going to run into traffic either brandishing your firearm or screaming to the guy I have a gun scares me in the sense that that is the absolute worst thing you could do. Get some more training, and if you wana play cop go through all the correct steps to get into law enforcement. In the meantime let them do their job. Seriously though take our advice, either get more training or read some of the many books they have on how to conduct yourself as a CC holder.
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:44 PM   #14
Im a 'Pistol'
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'Just because you obtained a CC permit does not make you some sort of peace officer nor are you obliged to do so. I agree you need some more training if this is your mindset as you will either get yourself killed or end up in jail. Just the fact that you are scenario playing how you are going to run into traffic either brandishing your firearm or screaming to the guy I have a gun scares me in the sense that that is the absolute worst thing you could do. Get some more training, and if you wana play cop go through all the correct steps to get into law enforcement. In the meantime let them do their job. Seriously though take our advice, either get more training or read some of the many books they have on how to conduct yourself as a CC holder'

REPLY: I shall take more training per your advice. The scenario -playing is based on actual events that took place in front of me some time ago , so, im not to be confused with a 'gun owner with an itchy finger' looking to play 'Peace Officer' . The last thing I want to do is use my pistol if at all necessary. I shall pursue books on conducting oneself as a CC holder in particular .
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:52 PM   #15
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With the freedom to bear arms comes great responsibility... get some good instruction before you do something you'll regret later.
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Old February 25, 2012, 12:55 PM   #16
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With that situation I think you're heading down a road of vigilantism that you wouldn't want to be on if push came to shove.

JUST read the stories of "good" shootings where the person loses possesions, time, jobs, etc. fighting court battles for two years. The stories are EVERYWHERE.
Here, this is an ongoing one right this second here at TFL
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480050

I always go by the adage, "Don't pull out a gun unless you are immediately prepared to use it."

Call the cops, save yourself a potential life disaster.

Quote:
It is not my nature to poke my head into other peoples business, but, now that I am licensed for CC and have taken a couple of pistol training classes
There's your problem right there. You have a CC as a last ditch effort to protect yourself. You're not a cop, and shouldn't be an armed vigilante on a domestic abuse case.


Quote:
Assuming you HAD to directly intervene, how would handle it after 911 is called ?
Now you're jumping situations. As this thread pertains to seeing some sort of domestic violence in a passing car, i'll stick to replying to that scenario.
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Old February 25, 2012, 01:06 PM   #17
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From what I understand two of the most dangerous aspects of law enforcement are motor vehicle stops and domestic disturbances. You are talking about a situation involving both elements, amplifying the risk of things potentially going really bad really fast. As much as I applaud your intentions of wanting to be a good samaritan, you are not a police officer. If nobody’s life is in imminent danger the best move you can make is to call local law enforcement giving them the tag number of the vehicle, description of what you observed, and the location of the incident. Letting the professionals who are thoroughly trained to deal with situations of this nature minimizes the risk of anyone involved getting injured or worse.
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Old February 25, 2012, 01:10 PM   #18
Glenn Dee
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To the O/P If you must get involved. Dail 9-1-1. Every post on here is giving good solid advice. Call 9-1-1, be a good witness. Family disputes are at best a loose loose situation requiering much training, and many years of experience to handle with any kind of competence.
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Old February 25, 2012, 01:55 PM   #19
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As a former police officer I can tell you that what Glen Dee & others have said is great advice. Other than calling 911 & getting the best descriptions you can stay out of it.
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Old February 25, 2012, 01:57 PM   #20
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I have been involved in two "domestic violence" cases, as they are called today. Bare hands used only to stop the men. One was a guy leaning in the window of a taxi beating a woman who was screaming for help. I stopped him. The other was a guy chasing a women down the sidewalk, as she yelled for help. I stopped him. In both cases, the women were mad at me. Go figure! I do not intervene unless asked or look for trouble, but given that, neither of these situations turned out well.
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Old February 25, 2012, 02:05 PM   #21
Frank Ettin
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The OP has his answer(s) -- no reason to continue this.
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