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Old February 22, 2012, 01:18 AM   #76
Bill DeShivs
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Irishb-
Your comments are irresponsible. One shooting (that we don't know the circumstances of) is not an indicator of effectiveness.
I would think the case you cited would be the exception, rather than the norm. Most 20 gauge shotgun blasts to the chest within 10 feet would prove fatal.
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Old February 22, 2012, 09:14 AM   #77
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orthosopy
It will certainly do the job through an interior hollow core door. I think any argument about the ballistic capabilities of a shotshell that isn't buckshot are pretty pointless at HD ranges. Walk your GF's place...I'd be surprised if there is longer than a 10 yard uninterrupted run.
They aren't pointless at all and #6 shot is a poor choice for a variety of reasons. It seems to me that you are measuring your weapon's effectiveness based on what it can do to a hollow core dore. I'm willing to bet a grown man could probably put his fist through a hollow core dore. Never seen a grown man put his fist through another man's sternum.

As we've discussed here numerous times, there are three ways a firearm stops somebody from continuing an attack:

1. It stops the upper central nervous system from functioning through direct damage.

2. It causes unconscious by reducing the blood flow to the upper central nervous system via massive blood loss which can only be achieved by poklng holes in large, blood bearing organs.

3. Through pain or fear, it causes the attacker to choose to discontinue the attack.

The first two are physiological - no matter what choice your attacker makes, he will stop attacking because his body is not physically capable of functioning. The third is psychological - it relies on the attacker's mental state to be effective.

If you are seeking to stop an attacker via #1 or #2 above, the targets you are trying to reach are usually surrounded by bone, muscle, fat and ligament that can be significantly tougher than a hollow-core door in an apartment or a piece of drywall. Light birdshot will often be inadequate to reach these structures - this is one reason why less-lethal ammunitions like beanbags are basically #9-#7.5 shot encased in a cloth pouch - because this size shot has very poor penetration and you don't want less lethal ammo to penetrate.

Moving up to #6 shot and cloth casing increases penetration; but you are still looking at around 5" of penetration in BARE JELLO on average. Put a hollow core door, piece of drywall, appliance or even a jacket in front of that and your margin for error is gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs
Your comments are irresponsible.
I disagree, probably because he is making the same point I am - #6 birdshot doesn't have enough penetration to be reliably achieve stops via #1 or #2 above unless you get a perfect profile:

1. Average sized male
2. Unobstructed chest shot from front or back only
3. Light clothing or no clothing at all
4. Range less than 15'

And as IrishB's anecdote indicates, even then birdshot will still occasionally fail to do the job. So I don't see how that comment is irresponsible.

Quote:
Most 20 gauge shotgun blasts to the chest within 10 feet would prove fatal.
IrishB's anecdote is by no means the only one out there where shotgun blasts to the chest or head at 10 feet were not only not fatal; but failed to stop the person shot from running, fighting back, or continuing to function. Can it immediately stop people? You bet. Can it kill people, even through walls? Again, it sure can. Will any heavier shot have a better chance of stopping someone immediately? Yes, it will. How muich margin for error does #6 shot have before it stops being effective? Not a whole hell of a lot.
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Old February 22, 2012, 09:52 AM   #78
orthosophy
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I will note that the original poster was asking about a .22 carbine for HD.

I invite anyone who thinks 6 shot from a 20 gauge at 10 feet is not a viable defense round to stand in front of one. My anecdotal experience is that being shot with a small caliber bullet really didn't hurt too much at the time, and didn't really stop me from functioning.

If you don't like it, if you aren't comfortable with it, by all means, use buck shot. The point is this: I'd take a small, light, reliable shotgun over a .22, for the OP.
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Old February 22, 2012, 10:11 AM   #79
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Quote:
I invite anyone who thinks 6 shot from a 20 gauge at 10 feet is not a viable defense round to stand in front of one.
That is pretty big talk considering nobody has suggested 6 shots from a 20 gauge at 10 feet isn't viable defense.

Being "viable defense" and being a reliable stopper are not the same thing. Besides, what in the world makes you think you would get a chance to fire all six shots? If you want to based defense on the cumulative effects of repeated shots, then a Daisy Red Rider BB gun can be a viable defense as well.

And I bet you aren't willing to stand in front of one to be shot multiple times either, so then obviously the Red Rider is every bit as good of a reliable defense as you 20 ga. shotgun, right?

Silly and stupid criteria give you silly and stupid results.

Challenging folks to stand in front of a weapon and letting them be hit with it is not a valid challenge to substantiate the viability of that weapon for self defense.
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Old February 22, 2012, 11:00 AM   #80
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DNS, I agree with your overall point, but I believe the post to which you are replying refers to #6 shot, as in birdshot, rather than 6 shots from the shotgun.
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Old February 22, 2012, 11:04 AM   #81
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orthosophy
I invite anyone who thinks 6 shot from a 20 gauge at 10 feet is not a viable defense round to stand in front of one. My anecdotal experience is that being shot with a small caliber bullet really didn't hurt too much at the time, and didn't really stop me from functioning.
Wow, I've never heard that argument before. It TOTALLY changed my mind this time. I don't want to be kicked in the balls; but kicking me in the balls isn't going to cause me to physiologically shut down regardless of how much I dislike it.

#6 shot from a 20 gauge at 10' could cause you to physioglogically shut down if we meet all the conditions stipulated earlier, it just is less likely to do that than heavier shot and is more susceptible to failure if not all of those conditions are met.

Look at your own words. You said about your chosen defense load "It's non unreasonable to hope a few walls will stop or slow it down to the point of impotence." - If 2-4" of powdered gypsum backed by paper slows down your chosen defense load to the point of impotence, what does that say about your chosen defense load? To me it says that there are lot of commonly occuring things in a house that will make that load impotent. Since I don't use lethal force for self-defense unless I think there is an immediate and serious threat of death or serious bodily injury, I don't want to use a load that is easily rendered impotent by commonly encountered materials.

You apparently, don't have a problem with that and that doesn't bother me in the least. However, you also don't seem to have a problem with recommending that solution to other people without any qualfiers - even when they didn't ask about shotguns at all in the initial post. So I just wanted to make it clear to someone who might read your advice what exactly they are getting into - and I also wanted to respond to Bill Deshivs, who normally has good advice; but with whom I disagreed in this particular instance.
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Old February 22, 2012, 11:45 AM   #82
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I know this is just an anecdote that doesn't tell us much about the stopping power of shotguns but my oldest cousin told me a story while he was interning at a hospital in Memphis back in the 1980s.

A homeless fellow was brought in that had been hit in the lower abdomen with a shotgun blast. I don't know the gauge or the shot size but I was told the Xray showed almost 100 pellets that were stopped by the skin on the fellow's back after passing through from the front. My cousin said he worked for twelve hours on the fellow before the man finally died.


It seems like there was a Canadian study of birdshot penetration that considered sizes and distances and it wasn't impressive. I don't think any came close to the recommended 12 inch minimum.
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Old February 22, 2012, 12:25 PM   #83
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My 2 cents worth. While not ideal, a Ruger 10/22 properly maintained/cleaned and fed good HP ammo such as CCI Stingers while not the best HD weapon would certainly be better than only dialing 911.

Short light, replace factory sites with a set of fiber optic sites or red dot type. Cheap easy to practice with, which leads to ability to shoot without fear and make reliable accurate hits. If you have a good 25 round Ruger mag that is lubed and runs cleanly even better. Teaching a novice to use one is very easy, even clearing a failure to fire should it happen. Again wouldn't be my first choice but certainly would hate to meet up with someone who has a loaded Ruger 10/22 at her shoulder and pointed at me.
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Old February 22, 2012, 02:53 PM   #84
Bill DeShivs
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Another Memphis 1980s anecdote:
I personally know both the shooter and the person shot.
Victim was shot in chest with a Rem 100 12 ga. with #8 birdshot at <10 feet.
Victim had consumed quite a bit of alcohol and cocaine. Victim ran 35 yards before collapsing from blood loss. Gunshot required removal of 1/2 of right lung, and shell wadding was removed from his spine. Shooting happened within 1/2 mile of ER.
Buckshot would have made no difference. Shot placement might have made a difference.
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Old February 22, 2012, 03:14 PM   #85
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yeah, I didn't mean to start anything. The sad fact is nothing is a guaranteed show stopper with no drawbacks.

When he mentioned an apartment with kids, that was part of the same situation my gf was in, so we went into it thinking not only about the defense, but the other people and thin interior walls factor.

I have a bat and a .45 myself.

Anyway, yeah.
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