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Old January 25, 2012, 09:43 PM   #1
eaglehd00
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Springfield 1864

Hi everyone I'm new to the bp world here and could use a little advise. I recently aquired 3 of what I was told are kit guns. They are all percussion cap style, one looks like a replica remington model 1858 its says fie italy on the bottom of the butt, one looks like some old flint lock but in percussion, and the thrird has no markings it is a quad barrel revolver thing. I didn't pay very much for the figuring if the were kit guns they weren't worth much. The question is the guy I purchased these from has a long gun that is stamped springfield 1864. My concern is that if these other bp are kits what do I look for to make sure that isn't a fake. I would concider the condition to be decent, he is asking $50, not sure if it is worth it even if it is a replica. Any advice would be great.
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Old January 25, 2012, 11:30 PM   #2
Jim Watson
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$50 for an 1864 Springfield is ridiculous.
Either it is a very cheap fake or the guy is totally nuts.

Nobody here can tell you what is going on without seeing the gun or good close clear pictures. I sure can't give you an easy lesson in evaluating guns over the www.
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Old January 26, 2012, 12:17 AM   #3
arcticap
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There's a bunch of non-firing replica muskets made by Denix that range in price from $120 - $229 new.
Maybe it's one of those.
They make good, inexpensive wall hangers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Brigade
As a Civil War buff, I found the Denix 1853 Civil War Enfield Musket replica to have the heft, feel and appearance of the original (which is decidedly out of my price range). This item, though, is reasonably priced and does make an outstanding (and safe) display piece. A good value all around.
http://americancivilwar.com/Military...l+War&c=SGoods

http://americancivilwar.com/qmresource.html

Last edited by arcticap; January 26, 2012 at 12:22 AM.
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Old January 26, 2012, 12:11 PM   #4
eaglehd00
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So I guess $50 would be a good price to pay. If it is only a wall hanger it wouldn't break the bank, if it is an original I guess it would be worth it too. I may just have to pick it up and throw some pictures on here for you guys to check out. Thanks for the replies, I'll try to pic it up by this weekend and get some pics.
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Old January 26, 2012, 01:48 PM   #5
Mike Irwin
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As I understand it, most of the 1864 variant of the Model 1863 Springfield, total production about 250,000, were converted to Trapdoors starting right after the war.

As such, they're considered to be a bit rarer than previous Springfield models and tend to command something of a premium.

For $50 I'd take my chances.

If I got a total piece of crap, I'd have a wall hanger.

If I got lucky, I'd have a relatively valuable rifled musket.
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Old January 26, 2012, 04:15 PM   #6
eaglehd00
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So here's a question, how can they repo one that says springfield, wouldn't there be some kind of legal issues there? Just a thought. I'll get ahold of the guy and pick it up if he still has it. I think either way it will end up on the wall by the other guns.
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Old January 26, 2012, 04:29 PM   #7
DPris
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No issues.
Just part of the repro marking.
The current Springfield company has no relation to the original govenment facility.
Denis
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Old January 26, 2012, 05:54 PM   #8
Mike Irwin
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The Springfield Armory that made the civil war era rifled muskets was a US Government facility. No copyright would attach to that.
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Old January 26, 2012, 07:53 PM   #9
eaglehd00
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OK good info to know. I called the guy when I got done with work today and he is gonna set them aside for me pick up tomorrow night. I'm not getting my hopes up if it's an original but he said he was now gonna throw in 2 old shotguns just to get ride of what he has left.
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Old January 26, 2012, 10:21 PM   #10
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Good luck with your adventure and keep us posted on how you come out - and pictures please! I'm hoping that you run into a "keeper"! Strange things happen and once in a while, you run across something that you'd least expect. You have to remember that not everyone has a "thing" for guns.

Many years ago, I ran across a friend of an acquaintance who was Administrator for his father-in-laws estate. The old man had collected guns for a number of years. In settling the estate, the Probate Judge ordered the Administrator to have the guns appraised. He took them to a local gunsmith who appraised them at a price that was beyond cheap. The gunsmith evidently figured that he would later buy them from the estate at the price he had appraised them for. However, in the meantime, the gunsmith died.

When the Administrator was given the go ahead by the judge to sell the guns, he got in contact with me as he knew I liked old guns. He, nor the family had any interest in them at all - to them, it was something to get rid of so the estate could be settled and they could go on with their lives.

I went to the guys house and he gave me a list of the guns and told me I couldl have as many or as few of them that I wanted at the price they were appraised for. Long story short, I paid $335.00 (yes, you are reading that correctly) for 35 guns. A few were "wall hangers" but in the lot, I got a German Schuetzen Rifle, Brown Bess, Whitneyville Plymouth NavyRifle (only 15,000 produced), 1861 Bridesburg, 1864 Watertown (1862 pattern), British 1855 Enfield, Austrian Lorenz Rifle (with Ohio markings) as well as several nice European sporterized Mausers, ML shotguns and round ball rifles - all guns were originals and in nice shape and unaltered. I have since liquidated my longun collection with the exception of several. So you see, every once in a while a person lucks out. At the time, I tried telling the Administrator that they were worth more but he insisted that he only wanted what they were appraised for (the family was well to do and really didn't need the money) and he was happy that someone was getting them that would enjoy them.
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Old January 26, 2012, 10:42 PM   #11
eaglehd00
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I really enjoyed the story bedbugbilly. I will be sure to keep you guys posted and with some pics. I have tried other forums for other topics but I must say all you on this one seem to alot more excepting to a new member thanks for all your advice and help, I think I finally found a forum I could call home.
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Old January 27, 2012, 11:49 PM   #12
eaglehd00
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here are some pics sorry there not very good either its too dark with no flash or a big glare with a flash. After getting it home now and comparing it to pictures I would think its not original the only markings I see is behind the hammer it says 1864, right in front of the hammer is an eagle and to the right of that is says springfield. Up on the ring that holds the stock to the barrell there is a U stamped in it sideways under a screw.
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Old January 28, 2012, 05:19 AM   #13
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It's an original that's been cut down. No collector value but well worth 50 bucks and then some.
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Old January 28, 2012, 06:07 AM   #14
Mike Irwin
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You know what that might be?

It might be a Francis Bannerman special.

Bannerman was a dealer in military surplus at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. Fascinating man.

One of the things that they did is to take Springfield civil war era rifled muskets, sporterize them and either bore out or replace the rifled barrel with a smoothbore barrel.

They were sold very cheaply as utility sporting shotguns.
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Old January 28, 2012, 09:16 PM   #15
eaglehd00
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Hey guys thanks to all of you for the help and info. My brother saw it today and already trying to get me to sell it to him, He won't even let me enjoy it for a day.
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Old January 28, 2012, 11:45 PM   #16
Jim Watson
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Yup.

Looks just like the one in my 1901 Sears catalog reprint.
Springfield rifle musket converted to shotgun, $2.75 when the least expensive breechloading single barrel shotgun was $3.98.
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Old January 30, 2012, 10:37 AM   #17
eaglehd00
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It's may not be it a valuable gun but just knowing how old it is and what kind of things it has seen over the years makes it worth holding on too.
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Old January 30, 2012, 01:00 PM   #18
bedbugbilly
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Hey - you did just fine on that one! Yes, it's a "cut down" but a lot of them were altered that way to use for shotguns. Kind of like taking an old Mauser and "sporterizing" it. You have well over $50 just if you "parted it out" and sold the lock, trigger assembly, butt plate, etc. You have to remember that even these "cut downs" have a history of their own. Welcome to the forum and enjoy that piece of history every time you look and handle it. I think it's pretty nice!
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Old January 30, 2012, 01:06 PM   #19
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And by the way - I'll tell you another little story . . .

As mentioned, Bannermans bought and sold military surplus for years - their headquarters being on "Bannerman's Island". I have a friend who lives in New York who also collects guns. He paid a visit to Bannerman's Island a number of years ago long after Bannermans was gone. He was able to do a little sxploring and he told me about the large cement piers on the island whee the boats would land and dock. Scrounging around, he "borrowed" some souvenirs. The cement of the piers was crumbling with age and he was amazed to find that they had used 45/70 barrels for reinforcing rod when they poured the cement of the piers. He gave me one and I still have it - a might bit rusted but it is the complete barrel with the sight and the action. You have to remember that all of this stuff back then was "surplus" and they purchased it in large quantities for literally pennies on the dollar. I have to admit that before he gave me that barrel, I had never heard of gun barrels being used for reinforcing rod!
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Old January 30, 2012, 01:26 PM   #20
eaglehd00
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I guess that is was more cost effective to use up all that extra they had laying around then to go out and buy metal. I am starting to enjoy all this, just maybe i'm hooked and can have fun with this find.
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Old January 30, 2012, 07:33 PM   #21
zullo74
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Ever heard that the fence around Grant's cabin is made from Civil War Rifle-Musket barrels?.....

http://stripedpot.com/2011/06/02/gra...ouis-missouri/
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Old January 30, 2012, 11:24 PM   #22
eaglehd00
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I wish I had a fence like that!
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Old January 31, 2012, 07:04 AM   #23
Mike Irwin
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Bannerman isn't the only one that used gun barrels as reinforcing.

I THINK it might have been Sam Cummings of Interarms. Bought something like 300,000 Lee Enfield rifles after the war (might also have been Mike Numrich) for something like $7 a ton knowing that a good portion of them would be scrap.

Supposedly the ones that were unsalvageable were poured into the floor of one of his warehouses, and the stocks that weren't salvageable went into his fireplace.
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Old February 2, 2012, 10:56 AM   #24
eaglehd00
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Took this springfield over to a friends g\house last night and ran a bore camera down the barrel, that was kinda a surprise.Ran his bullet remover through it and pulled out what looked like a very old ball. Now am in the process of cleaning out all the old powder that was rock hard still inside.
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Old February 2, 2012, 11:47 AM   #25
Mike Irwin
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Not uncommon to find old muzzleloaders still loaded.

After pulling the ball I'd have put a cap on it and touched it off.
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