The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 29, 2012, 10:55 PM   #1
cohibamatt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 8
New to Loading with Powder Confusion

I am new to Reloading, and I have purchased and read Lyman's Reloading handbook cover to cover. Following the books recipes for 45 A.C.P., I loaded my first 10 rounds Hornady 200 gr XTP HP with 3.4 gr of Bulls Eye with CCI LP Primers and Remington New Brass. 5 were crimped and 5 weren't, my first experiment. My first O.O.L was 1.275, as per book, and I found that the bullets wouldn't seat into my Sig P220 mags. No Problem, I adjusted the bullets until they jut fit into my mags. and then added .010 to make sure the fit any gun properly. My new O.O.L is 1.265. I believe this is .005 longer than the O.O.L of factory loads. No feeding problems, but I haven't tested the new loads at the range. I just loaded the mag. and chambered the round from the mag. to the gun. Since loading my first loads I found the "One Book One/ Caliber" for 45 A.C.P. The book breaks down the caliber by bullet manufacturer and by powder manufacturer. So I look up Hornady Bullets 200gr HP-XTP and Bulls Eye isn't listed. Next I checked Alliant's listing in the book. The load data isn't bullet specific, But the Data for a 200 gr JHP is listed at 6.0 gr max load. With conflicting data I checked the charts that came with my dies'. Lee's data lists 200 gr XTP with BullsEye at 5.1gr start and 5.8gr Max load. I decided to load another 10 rounds with 5.5gr of BullsEye thinking I don't have enough powder with the Lyman recipe and again crimped only 5. Being very confused I went and purchased another powder Accurate #2. Looking in the the " One Book/ One Caliber", I found a suggested starting load of 5.9 gr with the Hornady Bullet. Next I checked the data from my dies'. The data from the chart listed a starting load of 5.1 and a max load of 5.8 gr. I compromised between the two and loaded the next 10 rounds of #2 powder at 5.5 gr. and again crimped 5 and left 5 uncrimped. The reason for this experiment because I read in the One caliber book that you shouldn't crimp the bullets. Now for the Noobie Barrage of questions. Are my loads Safe? Will my 3.5 gr loads even fire out of my gun? Will the 6.0gr blow up in my hand? What data should I follow? Again this is my first attempt at reloading. I don't want to harm a bystander at my range, my firearm, or myself. What should I do if there is no data with my specific consumables? Can I vary with brands? For Example, if a recipe calls for Hornady Brass can I use Winchester or Remington brass? I know these questions may seem silly, but I would rather be safe than sorry.
Thanks in advance for the answers.
cohibamatt is offline  
Old January 29, 2012, 11:54 PM   #2
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,981
Sorry to be presumptuous

I found your post unreadable. So, I went through it and put in some paragraphing and organized it.

Quote:
(Paraphrased for clarity)
I have loaded the following:

O.A.L on all rounds is 1.265" (the longest that fit my magazines)
Bullets, Hornady 200 gr XTP HP
CCI LP Primers and
Remington (new) brass.

These fed through my magazine and action (not firing) just fine.

Loads were

3.4 gr of Bullseye
5.5 gr Bullseye
5.5 gr Accurate #2

at each level, 5 crimped rounds and 5 not crimped.


The reason for this experiment because I read in the One caliber book that you shouldn't crimp the bullets.

Are my loads Safe?

Will my 3.5 gr loads even fire out of my gun?

Will the 6.0gr blow up in my hand?

What data should I follow?

What should I do if there is no data with my specific consumables?

Can I vary with brands? For Example, if a recipe calls for Hornady Brass can I use Winchester or Remington brass?
Did I get it right?

I did not see in your post that you actually loaded rounds with 6 grains of any powder.

While you correct my interpretation of your post, I will try to give answers.

Lost Sheep

Last edited by Lost Sheep; January 30, 2012 at 12:52 AM.
Lost Sheep is offline  
Old January 30, 2012, 12:09 AM   #3
TXGunNut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: If you have to ask...
Posts: 2,851
I'm a bit lost myself but will address a few points. IME the 45ACP requires a light taper crimp. A roll crimp or no crimp simply won't do. OAL is determined by the chamber, not the magazine. There are some excellent posts by Uncle Nick on that subject so I'll not plow that ground again. 4.9grs BE sounds good but I prefer 5.5 of 231, either should cycle most 45's adequately.
I don't get picky w/ 45ACP brass, if it holds the primer, powder and bullet I'm good to go. Just sort by primer size and you'll be fine.
__________________
Life Member NRA, TSRA
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove
My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.
TXGunNut is offline  
Old January 30, 2012, 12:33 AM   #4
Lost Sheep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2009
Location: Anchorage Alaska
Posts: 2,981
Crimps. There are two types of crimp. Taper crimp and Roll crimp (which turns the mouth of the cartridge case into the sides of the bullet, usually into a crimping groove put there for that purpose. Your bullets (Hornady XTP) does not have such a groove. Roll crimps are generally used with revolvers and certainly only with cartridges with a rim diameter larger than the diameter of the case body.

45 ACP should NOT HAVE A ROLL CRIMP if they are intended to be fired in a semi-automatic gun.

Cartridges that headspace on the case mouth should NOT HAVE A ROLL CRIMP. They should have a Taper crimp Cartridges that headspace on the rim are indifferent to having a roll crimp or taper crimp as far as fitting in the chamber is concerned.

Your 45 ACP cartridges do not have a rim, per se. What looks like a rim is actually the result of a groove in the base of the cartridge so the extractor can pull the cartridge case out of the chamber.

If you did put a roll crimp on your 45 ACP cartridges, you may find that they go into the chamber too deeply for safety.

To test, take your barrel out of your gun and drop the cartridges into the chamber. They should fall in with a pleasing thunk and fall out with the pull of gravity. They should, if pressed in with your finger, not go in any further than they fell under gravity alone. (Probably flush with the barrel shroud, but this can vary with different models of gun). If there is any uncertainty, put one of your uncrimped (presumably taper crimped) rounds or a factory loaded round in the chamber and compare.

A light roll crimp might not give you any trouble with too-deep chambering, but it is best not to tempt fate.

A taper crimp is generally enough to grip the bullet strongly and since the taper tightly grips the bullet with the case mouth, prevents the bullet from being shoved deeper into the case when it hits the feed ramp during chambering in the normal course of firing.

If a round does have too much of a roll crimp to safely headspace, it may still fire because the extractor holds the round against the breechface, but it is best not to depend on that. Tempting fate again. If the round goes too deep and the extractor does not engage the extractor groove, you have a jammed gun, as the firing pin will probably not reach the primer.

If your roll-crimped round goes sort of too deep into the chamber and the firing pin does hit the primer, the case head may separate from the case body because it is not supported by the breechface. You have an explosion in your hand and face. Hopefully, most of it goes down the magazine well and you don't get too many splinters (if you have wooden grips) in your gun hand.

I think all your loads are lower than dangerous levels, but the 3.4 grains may not be enough to drive the bullet all the way out of the barrel. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS if you fire another round. A barrel obstruction (like a stuck bullet) can stop the next bullet in its tracks, leading to a bulged barrel and maybe a burst barrel and perhaps a handgun that spontaneously and spectacularly disassembles in your hand. Can take fingers with it, too.

I suggest you disassemble those rounds. If you choose to shoot them, shoot them one at a time and check the barrel after each one unless you actually SEE a hole appear in the target. Or see the rounds go downrange, which at the speeds I expect with 3.4 grains might be slow enough to see, probably around 500-600 fps.

Cartridge length depends on two things. You don't want them so long that they don't fit in your magazine or cycle through your action They should not be so short that the volume under the bullet (where the powder sits awaiting ignition) is so small that the pressure when the powder does ignite goes up too high. A small decrease in that volume makes a BIG increase in pressure.

Generally, changing brass is OK with the 45 ACP, but if you are near either extreme, it is best to go carefully when making the switch. The 45 ACP is a forgiving cartridge, as it was designed over 100 years ago and runs around 20,000 psi. Modern guns, modern steel. Don't push the envelope, but don't shy away from a little experimentation either.

If you can, post pictures of the crimps on your rounds, please.

Lost Sheep

Last edited by Lost Sheep; January 30, 2012 at 12:50 AM.
Lost Sheep is offline  
Old January 30, 2012, 05:57 PM   #5
cohibamatt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 8
Thanks for the reply's. Sorry for the confusing post, but it was a long weekend.

Lost Sheep,
The crimp I used was a taper crimp. I rechecked the both the Lyman Book and the One caliber book and both do say taper crimp if needed. Should I crimp the bullet any way? Is there a better manual I should get. I figured Hornady's book will only use Hornady's bullets, is that correct.? When the books say 185 grain bullet JHP is that a generalization, will any 185 gr JHP bullet work with the load make up?
Any suggestions on books that I should have? As of now I only have the the Lyman 49th edition and the One book/One caliber books.
Thanks again
cohibamatt is offline  
Old January 30, 2012, 06:25 PM   #6
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,206
The light taper crimp is to remove the flare from the expander die. The brass should lie flat against a jacketed bullet. If you simply loaded the new brass without flaring it first in an expander die, you should be fine. If you did flare it, then adjust the crimp to remove the flare. Technically, your calipers should show the case mouth anywhere between .467" and .473" diameter over top of the bullet in the finished cartridge.

The 3.5 grain BE load is typical of a light load for a wad gun, which is a gun modified with lightened springs for target shooting. It will fire, but may not properly cycle in your gun if you have standard springs. So you may have to chamber them manually working the slide.

The highest load you mention is 5.9 grains of #2, which is 0.1 grains above Accurate's own data, but they use a 1.225" COL. As the COL gets shorter, pressure goes up. You will still be under +P load territory with th 5.9 grain load, even at their COL, so it doesn't sound out of line for the 200 grain bullet.

Your statement about the seating depth has me confused. 1.275" is normal for round nose bullets with elliptical nose profiles like military hardball. All stubbier shapes seat shorter. Hornady's manual says the 200 grain XTP is designed to be seated to 1.230" COL. If you are still worried about pressure, don't seat it quite that short. 1.240" will still have enough grip on the bullet and will run your 5.9 grain loads of #2 a little lower. I would seat all the others to 1.230".
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Reply

Tags
noobie , powder , question

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08004 seconds with 9 queries