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Old January 22, 2012, 09:51 PM   #1
jason75979
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Shoulder collapse

Went to the range today and tried out my second series of re-loads for my 6.5 mag. Got home, lubed them with One Shot, let sit a minute or two, and began full length sizing. After a few cases, I noticed a "ring" just above the shoulder on one casing. I payer it no attention and continued, sizing two more cases. After the 3rd ring I decided to inspect. I found a small indention in the area between the shoulder and the beginning of the neck. Checked the other 2, same thing.
I remember reading too much lube could cause this, so I wiped clean with a towel, and re-applied with less generosity. The cases "vibrated"up, and down, in the FL die in what appeared to be, and obviously was, a "lack of" lube situation.
I tried re-setting the die, same result. Taking of apart and cleaning, same result in both re-set scenarios.
These cases (6.5 mag) are somewhat hard to come by and I'm at my wits end which was a short trip anyway due to my '06s performance at the range. Please advise.
Here are some pics if this helps.the case on the bottom is one of the victims recently FL sized.the same 2 cases, except this time the victim is on the right.same victimized case, different angle.
If it helps, I'm using Redding dies.
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Old January 22, 2012, 10:03 PM   #2
m&p45acp10+1
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I would recomend try spraying some lube on a cleaning patch. Then rub your finger tips across it. Use your finger tips to lube from just below the shoulder to the base of the case, and then try sizing it.
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Old January 22, 2012, 10:20 PM   #3
Jeff H
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Quote:
I remember reading too much lube could cause this, so I wiped clean with a towel, and re-applied with less generosity.
Too much lube didn't cause that. Too much lube causes dents in the shoulder. Decent pics can be seen in the ABC's of Reloading if you have that book.

Looking at the pics, the only thing that comes to mind is that if the cases are too long they could be hitting the end of the sizing die and causing the squishing. RCBS X-die by chance? If so, read the instructions and get the die set correctly.
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Old January 22, 2012, 10:25 PM   #4
jason75979
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They're Redding dies Jeff h. Instructions say to touch shell holder, then, screw in an additional 1/8 to 1/4 turn. I tried both of those.
M&p, I will try the patch and lube technique tomorrow, Thanks guys.
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Old January 22, 2012, 10:26 PM   #5
m&p45acp10+1
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Did you lube insided of the case necks by any chance? It could be from the expander pushing down on a dry case neck. Lube inside the necks with a Q-Tip, or a pipe cleaner with a touch of lube on them.

Oh and what he said is correct those are not lube dents.

Also you might try backing the die off to touching the shell holder, and then back about an eight of a turn or so. If they are going back into the sme rifle that fired them it should not pose a problem. A lot of folks use the FL die to barely move the shoulder back, and close the neck enough to get bullet tension.
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Old January 22, 2012, 10:41 PM   #6
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Make sure to clean your die also. An accumulation of lube and gunk can mess you up. I clean mine each time with an aerosol gun cleaner then clean it out with a patch until the patch comes out clean, just like cleaning your rifle. Also use a flashlight and visually inspect the die inside.

I also just use a touch of lube on my thumb and forefinger to lube cases. I don't use the lube pad technique anymore.
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Old January 22, 2012, 10:42 PM   #7
jason75979
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I'm pretty sure I sprayed well inside. But, to be sure, I will use a cotton swab and apply after a neck cleaning brush has been run through.
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Old January 22, 2012, 10:51 PM   #8
MR-7-45
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I forgot to emphasize a SMALL amount of lube inside the case mouth. The case mouth should be checked for cleanliness as part of your cleaning and inspection process.
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Old January 22, 2012, 11:04 PM   #9
243winxb
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Get an RCBS Case Lube Kit. Put lube on pad, roll case across. No lube on shoulder or necks. Use the Rcbs nylon brush to lube and clean the inside of the necks. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/744...-case-lube-kit

Last edited by 243winxb; January 22, 2012 at 11:09 PM.
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Old January 22, 2012, 11:10 PM   #10
jason75979
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Okay, I WAS in bed, but felt the need to try some recommendations.
Another case, cleaned neck, applied lube, applied lube with swab in case mouth........same result.......3 times! "buckled" shoulder. But only in one place on the shoulder. Tomorrow, I will try backing the die out. I'm tired, my pride is severely hurt, and I'm steadily costing myself money. Good night, and thanks again for all potential remedies.
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Old January 22, 2012, 11:14 PM   #11
jason75979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 243winxb View Post
Get an RCBS Case Lube Kit. Put lube on pad, roll case across. No lube on shoulder or necks. Use the Rcbs nylon brush to lube and clean the inside of the necks. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/744...-case-lube-kit
Only thing I didn't do and don't have is the "lube pad". I lubed the case body and cleaned the neck with the exact brush you speak of and then lubed inside and repeated my earlier results.
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Old January 22, 2012, 11:30 PM   #12
243winxb
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Is there an air vent hole in the side of Redding FL dies? RCBS has one. It may need cleaning. Backing the die out might help as said above. Use a comparator to measure shoulder setback. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...n%20Magnum.pdf
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Old January 23, 2012, 10:39 AM   #13
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Clean the die real good with a good solvent. I use break-clean. Remove the expander button and decapping stem. Lube a case and re-size, if it continues to buckle the case call Redding.

Are these Redding Bushing Dies?
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Old January 23, 2012, 10:55 AM   #14
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Steve, I cleaned the die very good and repeated the earlier results. They are not bushing dies. I did not think about resizing without the decapping assembly, that sounds like a great idea. :thumbup:
Will try that when I get home from work. Thanks.
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Old January 23, 2012, 01:12 PM   #15
mrawesome22
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Carbon build up from sizing uncleaned brass?
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Old January 24, 2012, 04:28 PM   #16
F. Guffey
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no place to go

There is brass flow and stretch, or is it brass stretch and or flow? What I do know is I have never found skid mars on a case that has been fired multiple times.

I have tested cases for work hardening, not something that a reloader would do but in my efforts I have turned cases into accordions, or cases that resemble bellows. And I have cases that collapsed at the shoulder/case body juncture, the cases that have collapsed (as in the picture furnished by Jason75979) were caused by bad habits, or by following instructions on the Internet as in "all you gotta do to form a case is lube the case then take the full length sizer die to form a new creation.

Again, I am the forming die fan, the forming die shoulder is not as abrupt/radical as the full length sizer die shoulder, the forming die is case friendly, in the 'big inning' case forming and case sizing was case friendly, all had long tapered bodies and long tapered shoulders, there were no shoulders with steep angles. Then came Ackely and methods and techniques changed, not re loaders, just the methods and techniques, re loaders continued to attempt shoving brass around a steep shoulder, if the brass will not flow around the case body/shoulder juncture and the shoulder/neck juncture when sized the case squats and or compresses and folds, anyhow, I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage as a transfer/standard, because? I know the length of the chamber before I attempt sizing, and when forming long magnums to short magnums I use forming dies that will allow brass flow nicely around corners, THEN! there are donuts, the results of more bad habits.

Then there are the cute little dies that lock onto the neck leaving the brass between the head of the case and shoulder neck juncture no place to go when the ram is raised.

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Old January 24, 2012, 04:36 PM   #17
F. Guffey
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"The cases "vibrated"up, and down...." chatter, locking up, skidding, sounds like the case is locking to the die, this could make it more difficult for the brass to flow around the corners, neck and case body junctures.

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Old January 24, 2012, 05:32 PM   #18
William T. Watts
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Most sizing problems I've encountered people are usually using a spray lube, I think it's best to use a case lube applied either with your fingers (I use RCBS case lube in the tube), or use a pad to roll it on. Which ever method you use It's important to not apply any lube on the shoulder or neck! William
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Old January 24, 2012, 06:37 PM   #19
warbirdlover
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I've had too much lube cause that.
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Old January 24, 2012, 11:23 PM   #20
jason75979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F. Guffey View Post
There is brass flow and stretch, or is it brass stretch and or flow? What I do know is I have never found skid mars on a case that has been fired multiple times.

I have tested cases for work hardening, not something that a reloader would do but in my efforts I have turned cases into accordions, or cases that resemble bellows. And I have cases that collapsed at the shoulder/case body juncture, the cases that have collapsed (as in the picture furnished by Jason75979) were caused by bad habits, or by following instructions on the Internet as in "all you gotta do to form a case is lube the case then take the full length sizer die to form a new creation.

Again, I am the forming die fan, the forming die shoulder is not as abrupt/radical as the full length sizer die shoulder, the forming die is case friendly, in the 'big inning' case forming and case sizing was case friendly, all had long tapered bodies and long tapered shoulders, there were no shoulders with steep angles. Then came Ackely and methods and techniques changed, not re loaders, just the methods and techniques, re loaders continued to attempt shoving brass around a steep shoulder, if the brass will not flow around the case body/shoulder juncture and the shoulder/neck juncture when sized the case squats and or compresses and folds, anyhow, I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage as a transfer/standard, because? I know the length of the chamber before I attempt sizing, and when forming long magnums to short magnums I use forming dies that will allow brass flow nicely around corners, THEN! there are donuts, the results of more bad habits.

Then there are the cute little dies that lock onto the neck leaving the brass between the head of the case and shoulder neck juncture no place to go when the ram is raised.

F. Guffey
I'm still a little new to all this and for some reason having trouble understanding what you're getting at???
BTW, I removed decapping assembly and still had issue. So next, I revisited my thread from a while back about "bumping" the shoulder. I then tried (as suggested by F. Guffey) using a feeler gage and sizing .002 less. Hmmm, success! No more dimples in the shoulder area and the case still chambered easily.
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Old January 25, 2012, 05:16 PM   #21
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Generally,the sharper the shoulder angle,the more likely the cases are to collapse.While I'd keep that in mind,I don't know you are collapsing anything from your pix.
Redding makes fine dies,so I would not,myself,think too hard about the dies being wrong.

I did notice your brass is dirty/carboned up.Please understand grit embeds in brass .That fact is used in industry with a tool called a lap,which can be used to cut very hard steel,such as a set of dies.That carbon is gritty and sticky.

A very good plan is to get a Lee universal decapper die,less than $15.Deprime your brass,then let the brass spend a while in a vibratory case tumbler so it is clean.

Another fine tool to get would be a Wilson(or other good brand) of bushing cartridge case gage.These are not too expensive,under $30.

While it is the method in the instructions of all the die mfgrs,bumping the dies on the shellholder is just not a good practice.It results in too much shoulder setback which causes problems.

With the cartridge case gage,you can back the die off,then gradually bring it down until the brass fits between the hi-lo limit on the gage.

Another method is the RCBS Precision mic,about$35,which allows you to control a desired shoulder setback(.002 is good in a bolt rifle).

I find the RCBS and the Dillon spray lubes work great.Apply it to the brass in a plastic coffee can or tub,agitate it to distribute it,spray it again,agitate it.I usually go about three times,the brass will have a lubed feel to it.Then you must let the brass rest a while,exposed to air,so the volatile carrier in the lube can evaporate.Thats important.

Its a good plan to run a nylon bore brush(they make a handle for them)through your case necks.It assures the id of the neck is clean,and will help spread the slightest touch of lube inside.Brushing out your necks will likely show an accuracy gain.And,your expander ball will be happier.

After sizing,check case length.Trim if necessary,but in any case,on new brass chamfer the ID and OD.Your bullets will be happier if the case mouth does not gouge them.
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Old January 25, 2012, 06:19 PM   #22
F. Guffey
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Jason, your cases have the beginning of collapse, the beginning of the first fold/accordion or the making of a bellows has started to fold inward, (the only way it can collapse), the collapse/folding ,first ring, can not be completed because the die body will not allow the case to fold outward, again, I use a modified die to make accordion/bellow/folded cases to determine if the case is work hardened, the modified die does not offer case support, when pressure is applied to the case it collapse in a catch release motion, something like using bricks for a stand, stacking bricks under an auto, place weight on the bricks and the bricks crush one at a time, bad habit.

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