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Old January 14, 2012, 07:29 AM   #26
dyl
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Just in the nick of time. I'm glad your friend showed restraint.

I cannot comment on the legality (not qualified, I'm no law scholar!). First I'll say that worked out pretty well so I don't think anyone is unhappy with the result. My stance is that in general, concealing as long as you can gives you an upper hand. I suppose I'm thinking about if the assailant is irrational (relatively speaking) as in he or she does not value their own safety in order to be deterred. Devil's advocate: What was there keeping that boyfriend from carrying his own pistol? And seeing how verbally abusive he was I'd say his anger could potentially skew his thinking into "this man wants a gunfight? Look he started it!" as he'd been itching for some kind of confrontation. Remember - it worked out fine so no worries this time.

The thing with the bare fists: I once read a definition of "grievous bodily injury" to include not only immediate death but anything that could reasonably break bones - and the skull is just a bone too. Also there is no way to know how far an attacker may choose to go. There is no written contract saying he will stop the beating/choking after the defender falls. So since empty handed doesn't equate to non-lethal, my speculation is that it would help determine when to draw if we're given a clue about his/her intent. As in: I'm backpedalling but he's advancing.

So statistically (if we believe them) your friend shouldn't have too many more confrontations left in his lifetime right? - but he might unless you as his friend help keep him clear of the crazy women who lure in crazy men just half kidding.
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Old January 14, 2012, 09:48 AM   #27
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In a lot of jurisdictions, bare fists do not make the standard for deadly force, unless a strong argument can be made for disparity of force. EG, healthy vs disabled, adult vs child, adult vs elderly, multiple assailants, etc.

Those jurisdictions are often the ones that consider the display of a weapon to be unjustified unless the actual use of deadly force would have been warranted.

It appears WY does not fall into that category.

For the "only draw if you are going to shoot" crowd, bear in mind that over 90% of SD uses of handguns result in no shots fired - the BG ceases hostilities upon seeing the weapon. If the BG ceases to be a threat, justification for deadly force ceases, too, so be careful about getting into the "If I draw I must shoot" trap.
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Old January 14, 2012, 11:08 AM   #28
trex1310
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Lawscholar: Sounds like to me that your friend did good. The
incident was resolved and nobody got hurt. As you know you
are going to have any number of armchair lawyers that will
chime in with their supreme Internet opinions. Btw the Stoeger
is a jewel in hiding. It's a lot of gun for a reasonable price. I
have the 8045F .45acp.
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Old January 14, 2012, 11:48 AM   #29
LockedBreech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trex1310 View Post
Lawscholar: Sounds like to me that your friend did good. The
incident was resolved and nobody got hurt. As you know you
are going to have any number of armchair lawyers that will
chime in with their supreme Internet opinions. Btw the Stoeger
is a jewel in hiding. It's a lot of gun for a reasonable price. I
have the 8045F .45acp.
I was very happy when the Cougar came in. It's a gorgeous little gun, and I think feels better made than almost anything in the price point.
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Old January 15, 2012, 07:31 PM   #30
FrederickDav
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Many years ago a brother of a friend [lived in Ala.] overheard someone badmouthing his wife. Being the hothead/tough guy, he approached the loudmouth with clenched fists. The loundmouth pulled a gun and killed the tough guy. It was ruled justified. The loudmouth feared for his life!
In Michigan, one has to have a reasonable fear of great bodily harm, death or rape to justifiy shooting. To say fists aren't leathal weapons is , in my opinion, wrong. In nine years of karate I've met people who could probably kill someone faster with their hands than with a firearm.
Even though I'm guilty of not carring all the time, I do believe if you have it you should carry it. It is impossible to tell when the gun will be needed or not.
There I've said my piece wether it makes a contribution to the conversation or not is up to others to decide.
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Old January 15, 2012, 07:49 PM   #31
arch308
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I read this here once..." when seconds count the police are minutes away ". I'm not sure what he did was "legal" but it worked and no one was hurt. Personally I wouldn't have let him get that close to begin with.
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Old January 15, 2012, 08:02 PM   #32
MLeake
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FrederickDav, in fifteen years of aikido and jujutsu I have yet to meet somebody who could reliably kill faster with bare hands than a decent shooter could kill with a firearm, but I know a lot of people who could probably have a good chance at a 20-30 second empty handed kill. I am one of those...

But the point is not whether bare hands can kill. The point is whether courts will accept that in a self-defense case.

In many places, one has to be obviously and severely outclassed. To add to that, odds are you could not argue fear of the other guy's martial prowess unless it could be proven that you knew the guy was a dangerous MA type before the attack.

Where you are can make a lot of difference, with regard to DA charging tendencies and existing case law.
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Old January 16, 2012, 12:09 AM   #33
wyohusker
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Thanks for posting... I love Wyoming. I have been carrying for a couple of years off and on... Long story short I had to pull my CCW last summer... I carry as much as I can now. The Police told me I was very justified in my actions. I am glad that your friend is OK and I thank what he did was the correct thing to do. There was no harm in what he did... everyone went home to their own beds that night. If you ask me your friend is lucky to have you as a friend.
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Old January 16, 2012, 03:07 AM   #34
TexasJustice7
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Mike38: I’m not about to take a beating by fists if it can be prevented. If showing a weapon will stop said beating, I’m willing to take my chances against the State’s Attorney.
In Texas the law is intentional unconcealment but being threatened and showing the gun would not have been a problem. I probably would have had my hand on the butt of my S&W 642-1 in a pocket holster and told him to stop. If he did not comply I would have drawn and fired, as I am too old to
take whoopin. But at his age he might could have outrun the guy. I couldn't so the only way I am taking a whoopin will be after the gunfight is over.
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Old January 16, 2012, 03:15 AM   #35
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Maybe I should have been clearer. The aggressor was at arms length, verbally threatening loudly with balled fists, lying in wait after midnight. My buddy showed the butt of a pistol with the safety on without drawing.
I was just rereading this and it brought to me a question. IS it really a good idea to show any part of a gun if they are within arms reach? I mean IF the guy is bigger and stronger if the guy was really there to cause harm I think he could have done it before he got the gun out of his holster. Not trying to start anything or to tick you off . But I thought it was a valid question,
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Old January 16, 2012, 03:38 AM   #36
HALL,AUSTIN
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Just going to throw it out there

I believe your friend did the right thing, he didnt lose control of his temper or his firearm and he also did not get a one way trip to the greybar motel for shooting the musclehead new guy.
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Old January 16, 2012, 11:01 AM   #37
Lee Lapin
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Do your friend another favor, and introduce him to Southnarc ( http://shivworks.com/ , and search the net for more). Two feet is physically too close to begin introducing a gun into the equation, and he needs to know how to handle that sort of close-up/contact situation better now that he's carrying. I haven't seen an integrated curriculum anywhere that's better than Southnarc's for this.

Meanwhile, the second line in my .sig would seem to apply...
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Old January 16, 2012, 11:38 AM   #38
BlueTrain
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Why does it always have to be either/or? I realize there is great danger outside your door and sometimes, even inside, yet one's own estimation of personal risk is no one else's business. Clearly one is not in the same risk everywhere, all the time, unless you're one of those who carry in church. If so, then I've nothing else to add.
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Old January 16, 2012, 11:40 AM   #39
MLeake
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Funny you mention that, BT, but after a string of shootings in midwestern churches, several of the ones in this area have designated marksmen in the congregation...
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Old January 16, 2012, 11:43 AM   #40
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I have no problem with church carry. I did on Christmas.
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Old January 16, 2012, 03:48 PM   #41
trex1310
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Quote:
Many years ago a brother of a friend [lived in Ala.] overheard someone badmouthing his wife. Being the hothead/tough guy, he approached the loudmouth with clenched fists. The loundmouth pulled a gun and killed the tough guy. It was ruled justified. The loudmouth feared for his life!
In Michigan, one has to have a reasonable fear of great bodily harm, death or rape to justifiy shooting. To say fists aren't leathal weapons is , in my opinion, wrong. In nine years of karate I've met people who could probably kill someone faster with their hands than with a firearm.
Even though I'm guilty of not carring all the time, I do believe if you have it you should carry it. It is impossible to tell when the gun will be needed or not.
There I've said my piece wether it makes a contribution to the conversation or not is up to others to decide.
I am in no way taking sides one way or another. One thing I would like
to point out is that a large portion of Alabama counties are still rural
for the most part and everybody knows or is related to everybody else.

So, it isn't out of the realm of imagination that this guy wasn't
prosecuted. Also, if you're on your own property and fear for your life
you can legally use deadly force.
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Old January 16, 2012, 06:47 PM   #42
Sleuth
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You asked for some alternative actions, here are some for your consideration, worth exactly what you paid for them:

Back up, loudly yelling "Stop, leave me alone! Go Away!" You would be suprised how many people may be about even at 12:30 AM.
(I have done this twice now, - worked both times.)

or,

Agree with the jerk while backing up - I really don't care if someone, or lots of someones, think I am a coward, if I can avoid shooting someone. Plus, I have seen that agreeing with someone who is trying to start a confrontation just thows them completly off - they don't know what else to say.

or.

Just turn and run as fast as you can. If he chases you, this builds a case for "fear of my life".

Thinking and acting outside of the box can create time and space for other options to appear.

I once had a well know actor ask my opinion of what to do if a guy in a bar challenged him (he travels with a bodyguard). My question to him was:
"How important is it to you that some drunk in a bar in Tucson claims he ran you out? There are LOTS of other bars."

(This is a farly common occurance for him, as he has played several "tough guy" roles. He actually was an Army Ranger between Korea & Viet Nam, but the issue is the lawsuit and noteriety that would follow a "barroom brawl."
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Old January 16, 2012, 07:56 PM   #43
armoredman
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That depends, Sleuth, is it the Bashful Bandit or Tens?

My movie line generator went into motion when the OP said the would be assailant began calling him cowardly and a weakling...

"Yeah, you're right, I am a weak coward. I'm also not going to get my butt kicked tonight."

Thankfully I live in Arizona, where we have a law called Defensive Display, which specifically states what he did, even up to drawing to a low ready, is 100% legal when threatened with physical force. With the legal disparity of force of size and training, using only the facts as given, it wouldn't be too hard to upgrade the threat to Deadly Physical Force.

Of course, I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.

Sounds like your man played it well.
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Old January 17, 2012, 12:12 AM   #44
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I for one think your friend did the right thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but Wyoming now allows CC however it has for a long time been legal to Open Carry.

All your friend did in essence was to switch from CC to OC. Both absolutely legal.

As you state, you never know when you might need it. I still clearly remember my stupidly when I flew down to So Cal to date some sweet young thing I met in Reno. She had told me about her possessive X-boyfriend and how afraid of him she was. I had one of those rare CA CWP, but had left my 45 at my friends house on the beach, and drove over to taker to dinner, few drinks and them probably back to his place. As soon as I pulled up in front, she came out the front door and told me she couldn't go out with me. I saw somebody peak around the corner of the building and asked her if it was her X...told her I would give him an attitude adjustment and started walking over to the home, BANG, and a shot goes by me...I took off at a run straight at him...he ran down a back alley. It took about 30 yards for the brain to engage and realize this was stupid. Me with a bad attitude and him with a gun that he had already fired at me.

I was furious, drove back to the beach grabbed my gun, a couple extra mags, and the people in the living room stopped me long enough to hear what happened, then started laughing at me, thinking he would wait for it to be a fair fight...Never went back to date the girl either, but carried a lot more.
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