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Old December 26, 2011, 10:54 PM   #51
Webleymkv
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Quote:
Let me guess, Illinois requires registration and keeps the records accessible via your FOID.
Actually, IL does not have registration for handguns or long guns at the state level. There are, however, certain localities that may require registration the most notable being, of course, Chicago.
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Old December 26, 2011, 11:20 PM   #52
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Quoting Ben Towe:
"CSI and other police procedurals have been the culprit for spreading the myth of registering a gun. Some are worse than others. NCIS is one of the better ones about real world scenarios, but I've caught a lot of mistakes on there as well. There is no magic computer that can track guns down, only a few states have registration. It is illegal on a Federal level."

Actually, according to that older than dirt amendment, it is illegal on every level. Amazing that originally the first amendment did not bind any but federal lawmakers, but that it was later "ruled" (gitlow v NY) to apply to states and municipalities as well. The second never had any limiting factor to it, and legally bound any agencies within the jurisdiction of the USA from infringing on said rights. It's all in easy to read language in that old piece of paper....a 20 minute read tops.
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Old December 27, 2011, 01:26 PM   #53
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Did it all get cleared up ???

Last edited by Eagleks; December 27, 2011 at 01:32 PM.
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Old December 28, 2011, 09:57 PM   #54
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registered

When I run someones gun in Tennessee I'm looking for one of two things.
The dispatcher will come back with "Stolen" or "no record found". That's it..
Stolen- well we got a problem.
No record found- depending on what the stop was made for there's an excellent chance the citizen will be on their way with their gun in their possession and a possible memento of some enforcement action on their person to enrich the great states coffers.
The reason for the stop and the totality of the circumstances dictates what happens on the enforcement action.
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Old December 29, 2011, 10:24 AM   #55
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheapshooter
Kept BY THE DEALER!!! not a government agency! At least not legally kept by the government.
Just a quibble, not really a correction:

In exchange for becoming a federal licensee, the FFL holder functions under the limited direction and supervision of the federal government, and so is an agent of the federal government.

There is a quid pro quo involved in becoming a licensee; the right to do business falling under the license is coupled with a duty to maintain and relate information on request.

FFL holders are not paid by the government, so they are not federal employees, but the distinction between an FFL holder and government isn't complete.
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Old December 29, 2011, 10:49 AM   #56
poptime
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adjective
1.
recorded, as in a register or book; enrolled. dictionary.com

1

a: having the owner's name entered in a register <registered security> Merriam Webster

It seems in either definition that any firearm legally purchased from a dealer is registered.
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Old December 29, 2011, 12:22 PM   #57
shortwave
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Quote:
In exchange for becoming a federal licensee, the FFL functions under the limited direction and supervision of the federal government, and so is an agent of the federal government.
Quote:
FFL holders are not paid by the federal government, so they are not federal employees, but the distinction between the FFL holder and the government isn't complete
Bingo... mandatory registration by proxy.

But alas... I guess we should be thankful(lol) that our gov't has made, instilled these laws mandating that the FFL has to maintain gun records the gov't wants. Can you imagine the Fed. taxes that would be imposed by the gov't on a gun purchase if the Feds. kept those records.
Could hear it now, "We have to charge these gun taxes cause it just cost so much to maintain the records and we need the extra $ to fund operations such as 'Project Gunrunner'.

Last edited by shortwave; December 29, 2011 at 01:00 PM.
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Old December 29, 2011, 12:43 PM   #58
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It really bothers me when someone starts a thread with a general question and no specifics, then is absent from the rest of the thread! I mean, three pages of responses and questions and the OP has not even taken the time to check back in? Seems like they don't really need a question answered or have anything worthwhile to contribute, but just want to get a fight started.

Rant over.
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Old December 29, 2011, 01:23 PM   #59
Al Norris
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Long Gun Reporting Requirements

It is not the DHS that is requiring this. It is solely an action of the BATF&E.

In March of 2011, the ATF indicated that they would be making a rule change to require all FFL's to report on all multiple long gun sales (within a 5 day period). The Congress shot down that effort by enacting legislation that would defund any such efforts.

In July, a letter was sent to all FFL's operating in the four border States (AZ, CA, NM and TX - approx. 8500 dealers) that required them to report multiple sales of certain semi-automatic rifles (greater than .22 caliber and includes .223 caliber).

This limited regulation is itself arbitrary and capricious. Consider: A FFL in Crescent City, CA (750+- miles from the border) must report, but a FFL in Las Vegas, NV (240+- miles) is not required to report.

This limited regulation has (now proven) ties to the aborted Operation Fast and Furious, for its inception.

That action is currently being litigated in 4 lawsuits (2 of which have since been consolidated). There have been no decisions in these cases:
  1. NATIONAL SHOOTING SPORTS FOUNDATION, INC. v. MELSON - Motion to relate was granted. J&G SALES, LTD. et al v. MELSON was consolidated. Cross motions for Summary Judgement are before the court.
  2. Ron Peterson Firearms, LLC v. Melson - Motion to relate is under consideration and further motions are stayed.
  3. 10 Ring Precision, Inc. v. Melson - Motion to relate has been denied, but the case has been stayed pending the NSSF lawsuit in D.C.
The DHS (and the PATRIOT Act) have nothing to do with this. It is solely an act of the ATF at the express direction of the DOJ.

Firearms Registration

Registrations of firearms has traditionally been regarded as government action. Local, State and/or Federal action. Federal law itself prevents the Fed.Gov from performing such action.

That leaves the State and local governments. Some have such restrictions, most however, do not.

The NICS check is not a form of registration. The only info (about the firearm) that is presented by the FFL, is whether or not the firearm is a handgun or a long gun. Make, model and serial number is not asked for nor is it disclosed.

For those few States that use something other than the Federal NICS check, there may or may not be some form of recorded information about the purchased firearm (registration).

Even among those few States, only 4 States have statutory registration requirements. On Jan. 1st, 2014, CA will be the only State that registers all firearms - CA requires all firearms transfers to go through an FFL.

ATF Form 4473

All 4473's are to be retained by the FFL for 20 years or turned into the ATF records branch in the event the FFL goes out of business, whichever event comes first.

Because of the nature of Form 4473, it is a Tax Record and all protections (under current law) apply. Up until a FFL goes out of business, these forms are his property and the dealer does not have to allow any access to these records by anyone other than the ATF.

States like CA have a separate form (DROS - Dealers Record Of Sale), which may contain the firearms information and are presentable to the local police, but not the 4473 itself.

Quite frankly, FFL's are under a legal quagmire. Should they show the 4473's to anyone (other than the ATF) without a Federal warrant or subpoena, they are in violation of Federal Tax Law. Yet if they refuse Law Enforcement access, they come under suspicion of the local and/or Federal LE.

---

To sum it up then. While there may be a State or Local form of registration, there is no Federal registration, even though the 4473 might be viewed as a de facto means of registration.

Wyoredman, I agree. We have many threads started by and never returned to by the individual OP's. Some are worthwhile, while many are not.

The degree of misinformation contained in this thread (by purported gun enthusiasts, no less!) demands an accounting.
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Old December 29, 2011, 02:20 PM   #60
Mr. James
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My thanks to JohnKSa and Al Norris for informative posts to set the record straight.
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Old December 29, 2011, 03:19 PM   #61
JohnKSa
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Quote:
It seems in either definition that any firearm legally purchased from a dealer is registered.
In the general sense of the word, not in the sense that is meant by the more specific term "firearm registration".
Quote:
Bingo... mandatory registration by proxy.
No, it's not. There is no registration because there is no list of firearm owners matching them to the guns they own.

There are purchase records, distributed across the entire country, held primarily by FFLs.

Even the records held by the federal government are held in their original paper form, not compiled into a readily accessible list.

Even if the federal government were to collect all those records and compile them into a list (which would be illegal), they STILL wouldn't have a list of firearm owners and the guns they own because the records are purchase records, not ownership records.

Purchase records may relate person to guns they own in some cases, but in other cases they merely relate persons to purchased the guns, not necessarily to their current owners. As we should all know, there is no federal requirement for anyone to keep records when guns change hands within a given state between non-FFL holders.

I'm not saying it can't happen, it's just not happening now. It could happen, and here are a few of the things we would need to watch for.

1. New laws requiring that ALL firearm transactions must involve FFLs. This is one reason gun rights organizations are fighting so hard to protect gun shows. The push by anti-gunners to require ALL firearm transactions at gunshows (even those between two non-FFLs) go through FFLs can be seen as a first step towards registration.
2. Abolishment of existing laws preventing the BATF from collecting and compiling purchase records into a list of gun owners.
3. Laws requiring existing gun owners to compile and provide lists of the guns they own to the legal authorities.

It certainly could happen, but we're NOT there yet.
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