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Old December 19, 2011, 02:27 PM   #26
nate45
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Here are some good questions for anyone contemplating the fast draw...When are you going to use a fast draw? Why would you need to? Are you by necessity in a high risk position? Are you really bad at situational awareness?

IF someone has a firearm trained on you and IF they momentarily avert their attention, you might be able to draw, fire and hit them, before they shoot you. Maybe, depending on who it was and even if you do hit them first, they might very easily still shoot you. By the way, the proceeding only applies to someone who has lots and lots of practice and is wearing their handgun in a manner that can be quickly accessed.

If its a situation where someone starts shooting at you first, when you least expect it. Well, unless your assailant is a terrible shot, you've been shot and what any human would be able to do from that point is highly uncertain. I try to keep an open mind and I know there are exceptional people in the world. However, if anyone claims they can calmly respond to an unexpected assault by gunfire...lets just say I have my doubts.

As others have noted being able to smoothy access you handgun without fumbling it, is a more valuable asset than a split second draw. Being able to shoot accurate 1.5 second Mozambique drills and 2 second magazine dumps is neat, but I'm not sure how valuable it is in the real world.
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Old December 19, 2011, 02:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
Trying to draw fast before proper technique is fully ingrained is a recipe for bad habits and carries the potential for disaster.
This.

Please note that the proper technique is very, very smooooooth. There should not be even a tiny pause point at any point after the gun comes out of the holster, until that briefest of moments while you verify sights and press the trigger.

A lot of people learn a 4-count draw, and they pause between each count. That slows you down and makes you more likely to fumble. Instead, think of each step as a point you pass through, not as an ending point in & of itself. Practice moving smoothly through each of the counts, rather than pausing at each one. The goal is to make the join points so smooth that nobody would ever notice them. The way to do that? Move as slowly as you need to in order to work smoothly and correctly throughout the entire draw sequence. If you have one step that takes you a little longer to perfect, slow down your entire sequence to smooth out that point, then speed up the entire sequence. Don't practice jerky movements -- practice smooth ones.

When it's time to replace the gun in the holster, slow down even more, no matter how fast you've been working. A lot of people have shot themselves in the butt over the years because they never learned that there's no point to jamming the gun quickly back in the holster -- ever. Slow down, change gears, make sure your finger is safely indexed on the frame and that no clothing or other obstructions are in the way. Move slowly enough that you have time to stop completely if something hangs up as you reholster.

When I intend to reholster, I bring the gun to my comfortable low ready position with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. I take a long, deep breath and let it out slowly. I look around: who's on the range with me? What are they doing? I make sure my finger is safely on the frame. Then (and only then) do I put the gun away... slowly.

What, not tactical enough? But it is: I just described the really important behavior of calming yourself down and breaking out of tunnel vision after you shoot. It's a skill that needs to be done with deliberation and thoughtfulness, and isn't simply a matter of swiveling your head around as fast as you can move.

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Old December 19, 2011, 04:18 PM   #28
nate45
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I went on youtube to try to find some examples of proper technique. After having my eyes assaulted by various donks, that swung their pistols around in a dangerous manner and re-holstered them as fast, or faster than they drew; I ran across the videos of the young man in the links below, who in my estimation, knows the right way to handle a pistol.

Corey USPSA 12 18 2011

He's smooth on the draw and subsequently quick, his fire is controlled, accurate and his gun handling safe.

Corey Fast Draw

He seems a little overly impressed by his own performance in the above video, but he does demonstrate the proper way to re-holster a pistol. As Cathy pointed out, no need to hurry then, safety is the only concern.
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Old December 19, 2011, 09:36 PM   #29
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This thread reminds me of an incident that happened in the DFW metroplex area awhile back. A criminal knocked on a house door and when the resident answered, the criminal made it clear that he was there to rob them. The resident was not compliant and the criminal (who hadn't drawn his gun yet) tried to draw his gun rapidly. He shot and killed himself.
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Old December 20, 2011, 09:52 AM   #30
bds32
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Either way though, my point is that draw speed is rarely the sticking point in the OODA loop.
Yes, and that is a sound point. My counterpoint is that even though rare, it is a possibility and has been a reality for some unlucky folks. As a result, it is something to be considered instead of being disregarded as inconsequential. It is not everything, only one thing, and as the old addage goes, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

You are correct when you talk about situational awareness being very important. Equally as important is the warrior mindset when forced into a fight. Good folks will be forced into some sort of defensive action by the offensive actions of criminals. The quick response to this offensive action gets the OODA loop going in our favor and puts us on the offensive until the fight is won. In some cases, that will include getting the pistol out of the holster and on target very quickly.
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Old December 20, 2011, 10:24 AM   #31
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Plastic training bullets seems like a good idea. Wax bullets used to be used when cowboy-style fast draw was all the rage, even though most of those contests just used blanks. One of the basic problems here is finding a place to actually practice drawing and firing (fast or otherwise). Just like rapid fire, some ranges frown on such things.

Elmer Keith used to claim there was little need for fast draw, although he practiced it as an art. He may have been it more as a stunt or a form of trick shooting. Either way, I suspect that most of us would lose on our reaction time, rather than our action time.

I am still a little troubled with the difficulty of drawing from cover (concealed, I mean). The better the concealment, the more difficult a smooth draw is and like you say, smooth is a Good Thing, but here I'm referring also to a medium-large auto from an inside-waistband holster. Other carry methods and other size handguns may produce different results. For instance, I notice how easy it is to make a fast draw with a light barreled S&W Model 10, including from an IWB-holster, just because the pistol seems so light, although I'm not at all certain about the "pointability," compared with a heavier barrel, even a 3" barrel.
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Old December 20, 2011, 10:43 AM   #32
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bds32
As a result, it is something to be considered instead of being disregarded as inconsequential.
Yes; but if you concentrate on doing the draw smoothly and correctly, the speed aspect will appear on its own without any great emphasis on training to be fast. The other side of that is not true, if you train with an emphasis on being fast, you will generally build in bad habits (and often not be as fast as you would have if you had concentrated on accuracy/smoothness).

I am not saying speed is inconsequential. I am just saying that it is a byproduct of a smooth and correct draw and that concentrating on doing the draw right will bring both speed and accuracy with practice.
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Old December 20, 2011, 11:14 AM   #33
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One of the basic problems here is finding a place to actually practice drawing and firing (fast or otherwise). Just like rapid fire, some ranges frown on such things.
With the numerous airsoft offerings these days, you can actually do it right in your house, and even against each other. The guns are close enough to the correct size and weight, that you really cant tell the difference, and they will fit in your "real" holster. The "gas" guns work just like the real thing, short the blast and recoil. They do have a recoil of sorts though, and you do need to track the sights through it, so its still pretty realistic

Youre right about ranges and them not being very "user friendly" towards realistic practice. Most places wont even let you use realistic targets anymore.
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Old December 20, 2011, 01:20 PM   #34
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Only had to draw and shoot fast twice in my life. I have no idea what my time was but both times I shot and hit before I even realized I had actually drawn the gun. One time right handed when I had to quickly put down a deer that jumped up and was heading for distant parts after we thought she was dead, that was a right handed draw using a 1911 38 super out of a 1940 style military flap holster. The second I had a broken right arm and I had to draw and shoot left handed at an attacking dog less than 10' from me and closing fast. That was with an open top cowboy style holster with a thong over the hammer for a retaining device.

Both were reaction scenarios that were unexpected with retaining devices in place, flap down and buttoned and the leather loop over the hammer. I don't think fast draw training would have helped me much but an awful lot of practice drawing and shooting for score may have helped me to automatically make a smooth draw.

I have never been able to do a fast draw against the clock or in contest with somebody without losing my gun at least once, usually multiple times. And those games were with the gun loose in the holster and no retaining devices in use. Thank God for Snap Caps. I am a firm believer in the old adage, "The hurrieder you go the behinder you get." and it's corollary "Practice makes perfect."
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Old December 20, 2011, 03:14 PM   #35
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It is a matter of coolness under pressure, which you may be assured is easier to write about than to do. But it happens frequently to lots of people, although hardly involving life-or-death senarios, though it could be close. The best way I can describe it is a practiced reaction to a sudden event. And it is more than likely something that you've done before. Here are a few examples:

If you wear glasses, protecting your glasses under certain circumstances becomes an almost automatic response. It is second nature. Or to catch a falling object which has been knocked over or something you've dropped. If you have a dog or cat that will snap at you after you have teased it one time too many, you develop real good reactions. The best (worst) incident I had to react to was when the hood of the car I was driving came open.

Frankly, it's still hard to predict how you might react the next time. I only had the hood fly up once but I don't always catch the falling dish, I've been scratched a few times by the cat (sometimes he's faster, sometimes I am) and I went through a lot of glasses when I was younger.
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