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Old January 13, 2001, 05:47 PM   #1
M. Fink
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I've been reloading now for about 6 months with an RCBS 2000 Pro. I have probably loaded around 6000 total rounds in rifle and handgun calibers, since I've entered the practice of reloading. I have had no problems until last week. I had loaded 330+ brass cases of 50AE without a flaw. Then I started to load the Speer nickel cases. After the first ten popped out I performed a normal check on the rounds. When I applied the dial calipers to check the COL the bullet pushed back into the case, as if there wasn't enough crimp on the case. Now understand that this was all taking place during one reloading session. I had not changed anything or made any adjustments anywhere to the dies or press. I just switched from brass to nickel cases. I have tried readjusting the seating die several times to the point that it crushes the case, and the case still will not hold the bullet tight enough. I ran a couple through the full length resizing die again and had no luck. I'm also sure that i'm not over-flaring the case mouth. I have looked through my books and can not find a cause. Might it have something to do with the nickel cases require a different method of crimping? Has anyone ever encountered this problem before? I would appreciate any suggestions before I end up trashing all the nickel cases.
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Old January 13, 2001, 09:24 PM   #2
Bud Helms
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Taper crimp.
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Old January 13, 2001, 10:34 PM   #3
doctor j
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I've experienced the same sort of problem with some .45ACP cases. I use brass from factory loads I've purchased and pick up brass at the range, so I've loaded a lot of different head stamps. Seems that R-P cases give me the very same symptoms. I resize all my brass and use a Lee Factory Crimp die. With the majority (at least 51%) of R-P brass I've encountered, I get loose bullets no matter how tightly I screw in the taper crimp. I posted a thread about this on another board, and one of the respondents mentioned that it might be a matter of case wall thickness. Another respondent mentioned that my resizing die could be oversized. Since the problem has been limited to R-P brass, I'm thinking that the problem may indeed be case wall thickness. Not a slam against R-P. I use Remington cases for .44 Magnum, and they are great. I contacted Lee. It's been a while back, but I believe they said they would sell me an undersized resizing die. You might want to contact a die manufacturer. For now, I check out R-P cases as I'm loading, and if I get a loose one, I toss the case. Hope this helps. doctor j
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Old January 14, 2001, 01:00 AM   #4
M. Fink
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help with case crimping

Hey now, that sounds logical. The 50AE cases are not widely produced by many manufacturers(speer,IMI,starline)so I don't have many variables to test. However I checked the two brands which I personally bought and once-fired. It seems that the case walls are consistantly thinner by an average of .001-.002 of an inch on the nickel cases. This would mean a total of .002-.004 less inner diameter while still retaining the common outside diameter (.530)I was crimping with the brass cases. I'm not sure, but I guess that could make the difference. Has anyone else experienced this with loading nickel cases vs. brass? I wonder if this theory is true, why it is done? Thank you doctor j, you may have just answered my $64,000 question!
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Old January 14, 2001, 06:07 AM   #5
renaissance7697
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Your RCBS 2000

I see you have recently bought a RCBS 2000
Why did you choose is over say a Dillon 550 or 650
How do you like it (the 2000)?
Was this your first press?

I have been using a rcbs Piggyback mounted on a rockchucker for some time now and I want something better.

I am attracted to the 2000 because I already have a bunch of shell plates for the piggy that I undrstand will fit the 2000 as well.
I like the price also, the dillons being very pricey.

Most of the people I talk to however are pointing me toward the dillons.

I load .45acp - 9mm - 38/357 all pistol stuff.
Switch between all three regularly

Do you have any advice for me?


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Old January 14, 2001, 11:26 AM   #6
sw627pc
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I suspect two factors here. First is case wall thickness, which you have already addressed. Secondly, most nickeled brass tends to be a bit stiffer than normal brass. It springs back a bit more. So you may have two problems.
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Old January 14, 2001, 12:49 PM   #7
Bud Helms
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I'll have to start checking my white cases and see if I'm having a problem I didn't know about.
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Old January 14, 2001, 01:11 PM   #8
M. Fink
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Responding two the two previous threads:

I wish I would have bought one of the Dillon progressives instead of the RCBS. I had a Rockchucker before the 2000 and had no problems with it. It seems to me that you just have far more control using a single stage. It comes down to the subject of quality vs quanity. The truth is when I'm loading serious target ammo or hunting rounds, I end up using my progressive just like a single stage. I have no experience with the Dillon presses, but it looks like one of them would be my next choice. I don't know for sure but it seems to me that the Pro 2000 was one of those type of projects that was rushed onto the market before it was actually ever tried and true. The press contains very delicate plastic parts in the priming advance system, which I have managed to break twice. It doesn't seem to difficult to do. When I called RCBS the parts were shipped out to me quickly and free of charge, but they should have never broke in the first place! Other things have worn out on the press(springs and other mechanisms) that I could ramble on about, but to make it short, I'll just say that I wouldn't recommend it. The press has worn out after 6000+ rounds!
On the next subject, I crimped each case (brass/nickel)in the die without a bullet and measured the crimped outside diameter of the case mouth. They both were crimped to the same outside diameter (.532) which tells me that the die is working properly. Both completed rounds have a crimped outside diameter of .532. The only difference is that the brass cases hold the bullets while the nickel cases slip. My brother has loaded countless rounds of 357 Mag, all nickel cases, various headstamps, without a hitch. I appreciate the ideas, keep them coming!
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Old January 14, 2001, 04:28 PM   #9
WESHOOT2
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Crimp doesn't hold the bullet: case neck tension is responsible for that specific function.

In 45ACP recommend obtaining a ($20) LEE "U" undersized Carbide sizing die. This will resize your cases to a slightly smaller diameter that will hold the bullets firmly. Then crimp the mouth to .470-.472".

Make sure you bell the case mouth enough to allow fairly easy bullet seating; too little flare will deform most bullet bases when seating, affecting accuracy (bullet base 'steers').
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Old January 14, 2001, 06:04 PM   #10
Bud Helms
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Actually WESHOOT2 is correct. I always make that slip-up. A taper die isn't a full length gradual taper like a lot of reloaders think. It is really kept near the mouth of the case. It is a lot more gradual than a roll crimp, but it shouldn't be the only thing relied on to hold the bullet. One of those under-sized sizing dies is what I'd try.
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Old January 14, 2001, 06:58 PM   #11
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WESHOOT2...does using that U die have any effect on the use of an M type die (Redding expander)?
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Old January 14, 2001, 11:35 PM   #12
M. Fink
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The 50AE has a rebated rim. Would you think that by using an undersizer die, resizing the case end, would have an effect on how the 50AE headspaces it's self in the chamber? It headspaces on the case mouth. I shoot this round from my Desert Eagle.I don't have a lot of choices when it comes to selecting dies for the 50 (RCBS/Hornady). I'll see if I can find an undersizer for this caliber to give it a try. ---I really appreciate all the comeback I have received on this subject!
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Old January 15, 2001, 12:32 AM   #13
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I have to agree with weshoot and sensop. Now that I think about it, most of the time that I have examined my handgun reloads, I have been able to see the slight bulge the seated bullet makes in the case body. Certainly, that shows that the resizing of the case is responsibe for "bullet pull" in handloads. But then again, I thought about the purpose of the taper crimp for pistols. Okay, it undoes the flaring of the case mouth. What about revolver cartridges? here again, look at the bulge the bullet makes in a reloaded revolver round. Hmmm...the experts sometimes advise that a "heavy roll crimp" is advisable for heavy magnum handloads. But if the crimp is not truly influential in bullet pull, why is this advice given? I can see a roll crimp being used on a caneleured (sp?) self-loading round, to keep the bullet from being pushed any deeper...but bullets don't get pushed deeper in revolvers.

Can anyone finish up this line of reasoning about roll crimping revolver rounds, or have I reached a dead end?? Hmmm...maybe because of the lever action carbines with tubular magazines???

Are we set free from roll crimping for reasons no one remembers????
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Old January 15, 2001, 08:02 AM   #14
Hal
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RiverRider,
You're thinking in the other direction. In a revolver, the crimp helps keep the bullet from being "pulled" from the case by inertia. The recoil from a fired round moves the gun, but according to Newton, the bullets mass keeps it stationary, the result is that the gun, and the shell with it, moves back while the bullet stays where it is. The bullet doesn't move foreward, it stays still while the gun moves backwards. The same thing can also happen in an auto, but heavier loads are more frequently found in revolvers, and the push of the magazine against most of the loaded rounds keeps them somewhat in place.
Bottom line is the crimp holds the bullet in place to stop both rearward as well as foreward movement.
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Old January 15, 2001, 11:12 AM   #15
RiverRider
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RAE, I agree with what you say about which way the bullets will want to move due to recoil in a revolver. I have never had this happen to me, however.

What I am saying is that I agree with previous posts that it is the force exerted all along the bearing surface of the bullet by the case that holds it in place. If that is in fact true, then I should be able to shoot heavy-recoiling handloads in my .41 Magnum without the heavy roll crimp. I have never tried, so I don't know for sure one way or the other. But, suppose it IS true, but that we have all been misinformed all these years as to why a roll crimp is used on revolver ammo.

Based on the (possibly untrue) assumption that the roll crimp is really not a necessary feature of revolver ammo, my hypothesis is that it is a hangover from the days of lever action carbines with tubular magazines that fired the same ammunition as the shooter's handgun. The tubular magazine may have made the roll crimp a mandatory modification for ammunition that had once been perfectly functional in the revolvers it was originally designed for because bullets in a tubular magazine will only move DEEPER into the case due to recoil. A roll crimp would be the obvious solution for ammunition to be used in a tubular magazine.

Did I make that clear, or did I just muddy up the water?
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Old January 15, 2001, 12:12 PM   #16
linngl
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Worn out a Pro 2000 after 6000 rounds? I've loaded over 3500 in about a month, and I've just barely scratched the paint where the primer seating depth adjustment bolt contacts the press. I haven't even seen any wear on the plastic priming strips themselves. What springs have worn out (there are 4 unless you count the spring clips used as shell holders)? I've loaded .40 S&W, .357 sig, .38 special, .357 mag, .45 Long Colt, .243, .22-250, .270 & .30-06. I'm very interested in the problems encountered, because it sounds like I need a spare parts kit.
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Old January 15, 2001, 01:04 PM   #17
M. Fink
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I knew this one was going to come up.

All I can say is get ready. I had no problems at all with this press until somewhere around 4000-5000 rounds were loaded and it's been downhill every since.
There are two PLASTIC guides which feed the PLASTIC APS strips for the automatic primer feed. If you disassemble the top plate you will see what I'm talking about. As the strips move through this mechanism, each PLASTIC arm flexes up and down to catch the next groove on the APS strip. After a while they become worn or the PLASTIC weakens, which will result in one of two things. You may be lucky and have them snap off before they quickly wear out, in which case you may simply replace them with a call to RCBS. When I called RCBS they sent me four new ones, as if they were anticipating another breakdown. I've used two so far. Secondly, there is a lot of noticeable play even new ones, when the strips are being held by these arms- Bad Design. The arms and the strips should have been designed from a stiffer plastic or perhaps even aluminum or tin with rubber inserts to hold the individual primers. Anyhow, when the arms and strips begin to wear out they will no longer exactly center the primer under the flash hole. This results in primers being pushed unevenly into the primer pocket with some scary looking results. I can't believe I haven't had any primers detonate in my face the way they are smashed sideways into the pockets. Also you will encounter the APS strip stopping midway between two primers. When pushing forward on the handle to seat the primer, this will cause the pin to go through the PLASTIC jamming the strip. You the need to spend 15 minutes taking it apart and putting it back together just to get the ruined strip back out.
Indexing the turret no longer produces that helpful click to let you know that you have stopped in proper alignment. It just sort of spins with the same resistance all the way around. Lots of fun when you index, pull the arm and the case mouths slam into the sides of the die because it was not properly centered.
The main spring underneath which holds the turret in the ready posistion has worn out. The ram just rests on the bottom of the frame now making it impossible to index because the priming pin is pushed through the access hole. I've tried taking the spring out and stretching it, which will last for a little while, but who wants to spend time working on it when you could be spending that time reloading.
I don't know, maybe the designer had three arms to compensate for these flaws when they happened. Then again maybe I just got a lemon. I doubt it.
Also if you have any luck finding a parts kit let me know. I've already looked. I wouldn't mind stocking up on a couple of them for the future. I checked with my RCBS dealer and most replacement parts he does not carry because if you need them you can just order factory direct.
I don't want to trash on this press too hard because I do still use it and crank out some rounds with it but, it just seems like It could be made a little bit easier if the parts and design would hold up.
All I can say is that my next progressive will be blue!


[Edited by M. Fink on 01-15-2001 at 01:24 PM]
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Old January 15, 2001, 07:19 PM   #18
RiverRider
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I Guess I'm WRONG, but I Might Be Kinda Right...

I was just reminded by someone that a heavy roll crimp IS necessary with heavy magnum handloads. The bullets may or may not back out of the cases under recoil with a light or no crimp, but if you are using powders like W296, the heavy crimp aids in complete powder ignition. That is not to say that the crimp alone holds the bullet in place. It is obvious that a properly resized case is essential.

BUT...when lever action rifles chambered for black powder revolver cartridges came on the scene, it seems obvious that a roll crimp became necessary---not to aid ignition, because that is not an issue with black powder---but rather to keep bullets from being pushed deeper into their cases in tubular magazines.

Still just a theory, and I could be wrong. But it makes sense to me.
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Old January 15, 2001, 07:42 PM   #19
Hal
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Muddier, well just a tiny bit.

Well, since the BP rounds used in the Lever actions were bottleneck, they don't need a roll crimp. the 44/40, the and the 32/20 are the original BP pistol/carbine rounds. Also, BP filled the case 100%. meaning there was nowhere for the bullet to go even with the strongest spring pushing against them. Straight wall pistol rounds like the .44Special and the .45LC are modern inventions (smokeless) in the lever guns.

In reality, the smokeless rounds are more of a reason to crimp heavily to avoid pushing the bullet deeper into the case than the BP rounds. Since there's usually as much air as powder in a smokeless round, there's room to push the bullet into the case. This can cause serious overpressure providing the round is able to feed and chamber. The couple of rounds (.44mag in a Winchester) I've had this happen to me have failed to feed when they hung up on the case mouth.

I have had bullets jump their crimp and bind a .44Mag when I mixed factory and handloads. It isn't a fun experience banging on the front end of a live round with a few more live ones in the cylinder. Yes. With slower burning powders and especially with the ball powders like 296 and 110, a tight crimp holds the bullet just that fraction of a sec longer to allow more powder to burn, but the main reason to crimp is to keep the bullet from moving foreward. Serious match shooters (silloette(sp)) using single shot pistols seldom if ever crimp their ammo, and they use pretty much 296 and 110 exclusivly to get top velocity and accuracy.
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Old January 16, 2001, 03:28 PM   #20
RiverRider
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RAE, I hadn't considered the fact that the first revolver/carbine rounds were bottlenecked...but I am stumped as the why that negates the need for a roll crimp?? They were used in revolvers too. I wonder if recoil caused bullets to pull loose in black powder revolvers?? I have only fired a blackpowder revolver a few times, but the recoil did feel somewhat "different" to me.

If silhouette (sp? I KNOW there's an "h" in there SOMEWHERE!) shooters can get away without crimping while using W296, I suspect that the heavier bullets they are using allows that.

Oh well. Sometimes I get to thinking too much and end up at a dead end, like this. Time to do a little research to find out if and how they crimped tghe old black powder cartridges. Anyway, it doesn't hurt to explore a subject like crimping, it's good mental exercise. Sometimes I learn a thing or two (or three or four) in a deal like this.

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Old January 19, 2001, 05:23 PM   #21
M. Fink
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jijj

[Edited by M. Fink on 01-21-2001 at 04:50 PM]
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Old February 5, 2001, 07:53 PM   #22
linngl
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I finally got around to calling RCBS about a spare parts kit for the Pro 2000. They told me that they didn't have one because it wasn't deemed necessary. I asked them about the plastic tabs breaking, and they said the only ones that were ever reported breaking was when someone hadn't read the directions and tried to remove the priming strip in the wrong direction (kind of like backing over the one way spikes used for parking garages security entrances). I mentioned the main compression spring and they asked if mine was broke. I said no, and they asked, so what is the problem. I didn't have a response. So I hung-up.
As far as having problems with the shell plate indexing, it uses the same type as the Dillon, so maybe it just needs a blue paint job. Seriously it must have a lot of gunk under there to prevent the steel ball from snapping into the holes in the plate. Has your press been subjected to extremely high temperatures? This might explain all of the springs relaxing and the plastic weakening.
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