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Old September 13, 2011, 09:17 PM   #1
shredder4286
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Neck sized my brass, now what?

Greetings, all my "hand-rolling" enthusiasts. I've been full-length resizing 243 WIN brass for about 6 months now, and getting pretty good groups out of them. I decided to get a Lee collet neck sizer and neck size only. Now- my Hornady manual talks about neck sizing, saying it can pretty much be done until the cartridge is difficult to extract. (at least that's how I understand what they said) Is my understanding correct? Do you neck size until the cartridge is noticably difficult to extract, then full-length resize, allowing you to start the whole process over again? Thanks
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Old September 13, 2011, 09:56 PM   #2
5R milspec
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yeap you got it.for me I like to neck size for three loadings then anneal then just bump the shoulder back.this helps out alot for me.and the brass just keeps on and on.

you can all so tell when its hard to chamber the loaded round.the bolt will be harder to close.
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Old September 14, 2011, 07:09 AM   #3
steve4102
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Not really, you neck size until the round is hard to "chamber" before firing, not extract.
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Old September 14, 2011, 07:44 AM   #4
243winxb
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You neck size until the brass is hard to "chamber". You may want to try to chamber a few before adding powder & bullet. Sometimes just indexing the case after firing will make it hard to chamber. Has to do with how square the bolt face is to the chamber.
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Old September 14, 2011, 11:31 AM   #5
oneoldsap
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I just neck size till they need trimming , then I FL size them and trim to .010" under book trim to length , and anneal . I trim three times , then scrap them , next time they are long !
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Old September 14, 2011, 07:22 PM   #6
shredder4286
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Originally posted by 243win
So, is it worth it to anneal? Will I really get that much less case life out of my brass if I just neck size as much as possible and don't anneal?

Originally posted by oneoldsap
Quote:
I trim three times , then scrap them , next time they are long !
next time they are long?
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Old September 15, 2011, 06:16 PM   #7
oneoldsap
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Annealing will prolong case life , by keeping the case neck from work hardening and splitting . It's easy to do , most people tend to overcomplicate the process .
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Old September 15, 2011, 07:06 PM   #8
243winxb
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Annealing Cartridge Brass

Quote:
is it worth it to anneal?
Annealing is useful if done correctly. Problem is, get the brass a little to hot and its scrap. Over working the brass is the main problem. Bushing dies can help here. Annealing is best left to the factory. IMO. There are kits available that you might try. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=360902
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Old September 15, 2011, 07:14 PM   #9
mehavey
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I vouch for that kit/Hornady system... several years now.

Its use will double/triple case life where the reloader doesn't go
nuts seeking the RCH-point under blow-up.
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Old September 15, 2011, 07:23 PM   #10
jepp2
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Annealing may be a little beyond where you want to start.

First of all, the need for annealing will be less since you are neck sizing with a collet die, instead of neck sizing on a full length die. Why? On a FL die, the neck is excessively sized down, then the expander opens it up for proper bullet tension. Doing this repeatedly will work harden the neck much more than the collet die does. Since it just reduces the neck diameter by pressing it against the mandrel the neck will not work harden so quickly.

If you do become interested in annealing, the Hornady kit is nice, but you can accomplish the same thing by buying a 650 F Tempil stick and just use a 1/4" drive socket the head of the brass will fit in. To get you started, you might want to review annealing or one of the many others available.

If annealing is done improperly, bad things can happen!
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Old September 15, 2011, 08:48 PM   #11
shredder4286
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jepp2- thanks alot for that link- great article!

243win- why do you say annealing is best left to the factory? Thanks again, for the responses and advice.
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Old September 18, 2011, 05:48 AM   #12
F. Guffey
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Shredder 4286, These things go in circles, just two months ago the advise was ‘fire to form then neck size 5 times then full length size and start over’ and I said “How is that possible? When I do that the case has been fired 6 times, and that makes it impossible for me to start over by full length sizing” Then there is the effect on the case when hammered by all that PSI, some reloaders that measure before and after and keep up with growth from beginning to end find the case stops crushing/yielding and starts to harden after ‘X’ number of firings.

Dies? Ordering a die’ reminds me of ordering coffee, caffeinated, half caffeinated , decaffeinated mocha, light, dark, regular etc., when I order coffee, I want coffee and nothing but a cup. Same for dies, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying I do not have other dies, I am not saying I do not know how to use the other dies, I am saying I have not found a lot of use for them. I prefer the versatile full length sizer die, when sizing it can be adjusted from .012 thousands shorter than a full length/minimum length case (.017 shorter than a go-gage length chamber) to infinity in thousands. Then there is WHY? Again, time is a factor, case travel, I am a big fan of cutting down on all that case travel,

Annealing? Time is a factor, I make my own tools for annealing, heat travels and that is the reason time is a factor.

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Old September 18, 2011, 06:27 PM   #13
shredder4286
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Quote:
Then there is the effect on the case when hammered by all that PSI, some reloaders that measure before and after and keep up with growth from beginning to end find the case stops crushing/yielding and starts to harden after ‘X’ number of firings.
I suppose that, of course, is affected by how hot the load is, and maybe the brand/quality of brass. I don't know if I buy into the whole "gold standard" class of brass manufacturers (lapua, norma). It's still just brass....

Quote:
I prefer the versatile full length sizer die,
Do you use your full-length die to neck size only? I heard that they can be adjusted to neck size.
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Old September 18, 2011, 06:58 PM   #14
mrawesome22
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Look into the Forster or Redding bushing shoulder bump neck dies. I got the Forster for my 22-250 and love it.
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Old September 21, 2011, 06:12 AM   #15
F. Guffey
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Shredder, thanks for asking, but I must warn you, because of the belligerent nature of the Internet it could turn ugly, if it does, keep walking.

I do not shoot ammo that presents head space to the chamber. The length of the ammo I shoot off sets the effect of the chamber, or put another way I off set head space with the length of the case, but first, I must determine the length of the chamber.

I use the versatile full length sizer die to size cases for short chambers, no one else has a short chamber, when cutting a chamber I stop short of finishing, then load for the short chamber and go to the range and test fire, if it works I finish the chamber, if it does not, I remove the barrel with the short chamber and start on another one.

Finished chamber and knowing the length of the chamber, I can adjust the sizer die to neck size by adjusting the die off the shell holder, I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage, others use the fractional guesstimate of a turn or a guesstimate of a turn in degrees, they could take it one more step and verify their adjustment with a feeler gage, or go full circle and use the feeler gage to make the adjustment. With the feeler gage adjustments can be made progressively in .000 thousands all the way from neck size only to to full length sizing a case to minimum length, the neck of the case can be neck sized only or partially neck sized meaning a small portion of the neck is not sized, advantage, the unsized portion of the neck will aid in centering the case in the chamber. Partial neck sizing does not size the case meaning the body is what other reloaders call fire formed to the chamber.

With a press, die and shell holder, in the prefect world, the case can not be sized shorter than minimum length, the die contacting the shell holder guarantees that, back to short chambers or cases that will not chamber in a standard go-gage length chamber, I shorten the length of the case when sizing for short chambers by placing a feeler gage leaf between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case, the RCBS shell holder will allow for as much as .012 thousands to be added between the shell holder and head of the case, Lee shell holder could allow for as much as .016 thousands to be added, with the Lee shell holder and a .016 shim a case can be sized .021 thousands shorter than a go-gage length chamber (same as .016 shorter than a minimum length case/full length sized case).

Again, back to versatility of the full length sizer die, as most know I have an Enfield M1917 Eddystone with .016 thousands heads space, or put another way when a new minimum length/full length sized case is loaded and chambered the case from the head of the case to the shoulder is .016 thousands shorter than the chamber when measured from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber, again I form/size cases that are longer before loading and chambering, when sizing cases for that chamber I adjust the die off the shell holder .014 thousands, and on I am not in mortal combat with the claims department, I have no ambition to see how many firings I can get out of a case before the case whips my press, but if the case does whip my press I can measure and tell by 'how much'.

As to the case, measuring before and after, compression/yield, no one measures the case head thickness from the head of the case to the top of the cup, there is more than an adequate amount of talking about signs of pressure, cup and psi, for me a most boring topic, and, it is not easy to get past those that think the military type case as in LC and SL are safer than commercial ammo., for me the Remington R-P 30/06 case is safer than the surplus case, the surplus case head thickness is .200 when measured from the bottom of the cup to the head of the case, the R-P case is .260, if high pressure compressed the head of the case and the case yields before failure the R-P has .060 thousands further to do. Do not confuse hard/brittle with yield and compression, and time is a factor and that is the reason I neck size with case body support... .

Bump? To me sounds like an accident, a minor accident but a accident.

F. Guffey
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