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Old August 29, 2011, 09:15 AM   #1
stonewall50
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Be Wary of Pressing Laws

I have been thinking about this more and more recently. I Majored in history at the University of Florida and one of the things I can say in my studies that I have noticed, is that if a group pushes hard for something(rights, money, control, etc) the bigger the potential back lash can be. It is Newtonian laws applied to politics and history.

This being said, I want to point something out to members of the firearm community. I noticed the attempt in my state to push through a bill that would allow open carry on campus. This is an EXTREMELY touchy issue. I would LOVE to be allowed to carry concealed on my campus(game days, night events/studies, and just passing through). I would NEVER open carry a handgun in a public place though. It says to ANY potential threat to take care of me first, and to any potential junky that if they get the drop on me they might get a bonus. People are also wary of things they don't understand, and in the liberal environment of a campus you WILL be outcasted and criticised(probably not much ) for having a firearm.

If we want pro-firearms laws put on the books we need to make sure that we push them through slowly. We do not need to band-wagon drive laws through. That has a potential nasty side effect for us. We need to remember to press things through with constant but slow pressure we have a much better potential for making sure our rights stay open for much longer.
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Old August 29, 2011, 07:31 PM   #2
RETG
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I'll play devil's advocate (I don't really follow state laws since I have no need too in regard to weapons carry so I have no idea of any pending FL laws).

So, I'll ask:

Is there a push at this time to allow open carry, and to allow carry into a campus at this time in FL?

If so, there are probably as many who want the open carry law as campus carry. (My opinion from reading these forums.)

And when dealing with state (or even Federal) governments, there comes a time when you must "strike when the iron is hot." Meaning, you must get your laws passed when you have a gun-friendly legislature/governor.

If I misread your post, I apologize. But honestly it was a bit confusing.
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Old August 29, 2011, 07:40 PM   #3
Segerrik
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Open carry is a beautiful thing. Don't knock it until you have tried it.
The feeling of freedom it creates is fantastic! I do not know why Florida restricts this right, but it should eliminate the legal barriers as soon as possible. OpenCarry.org is the place to learn about it.
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Old August 29, 2011, 08:27 PM   #4
Standing Wolf
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I would NEVER open carry a handgun in a public place though. It says to ANY potential threat to take care of me first, and to any potential junky that if they get the drop on me they might get a bonus. People are also wary of things they don't understand, and in the liberal environment of a campus you WILL be outcasted and criticised(probably not much ) for having a firearm.
Do you have any facts to back up your assertions?
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Old August 30, 2011, 12:00 AM   #5
hermannr
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Well, I have nothing to hide. I open carry unless it is winter, in which case My coat is the only thing covering, and when I take the coat off...I am OC again...

Your arguments are a falicy. Why do you thing LE OCs? Do you think criminals honor the badge and uniform? If you so, you are mistaken. Criminals have contempt for the Law, and even more contempt for those that enforce that law.

No, it is that OC weapon that keeps most criminals from openly confronting the LE community...think I am wrong? Look at the United Kingdom and what is happening there.

I personally know of a case where LE stopped a robbery because the potential robbers were waiting for two OC patrons to leave.

Most criminals are cowards and bullies, and do not want anything that may challange their plans that may actually succeed. Your OC challanges their plan.

So in conclusion, you CC because you live in FL, that is all. Personally I refuse to dress for the weapon I carry, just so no one can see it. Especially in the heat of summer.
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Old August 30, 2011, 06:15 AM   #6
Uncle Buck
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I OC quite often around my place. (Farm and business) It is very inconvenient to try to do certain types of jobs with a pistol concealed in side a pocket or waistband.

My holster is like a tool belt, where I need it, should I need it, but out of the way when I do not.

Although I do not parade around town with a gun on my hip, I have been known to go to town for hardware, gas and a new pair of boots. If people noticed, I did not. The only comment I ever got was from the lady at the gas station. "Oh, that's a pretty gun, what is it?" (We laugh and I told her guns are not supposed to be pretty!)

I am a firm believer in not parading around with the gun just to show people you have it. I am also a firm believer that if enough of the public sees you carrying a gun (Like a tool belt) and you ignore them and go about your business, it will slowly change the public perception.
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Old August 30, 2011, 08:48 AM   #7
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonewall50
If we want pro-firearms laws put on the books we need to make sure that we push them through slowly. We do not need to band-wagon drive laws through. That has a potential nasty side effect for us. We need to remember to press things through with constant but slow pressure we have a much better potential for making sure our rights stay open for much longer.
You're missing the point, in two ways.

First, the pro-RKBA side is not trying to create any new rights, we are gradually trying to win back the Constitutionally-guaranteed rights that have been slowly eroded away over the course of several decades.

Secondly, we are not so much trying to create new laws so much as just trying to get existing (unconstitutional) laws infringing the RKBA removed from the books.

What you don't understand is that we don't have to fear the backlash. We ARE the backlash.
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Old August 30, 2011, 02:01 PM   #8
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There are historical backlashes to movements. We're still living in the backlash to the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s.

The power and duration of that backlash is dependent on many factors. One of the most important is how much that movement upsets the status quo.
For the vast majority of Americans the changes in firearm laws hasn't had a noticeable effect, so I don't see any backlash being that large. Given the lack of power of the anti-gun side I doubt there will be any notieable backlash.

I think the more important historical trend to be aware of is that, whenever a popular movement identifies itself with a national political party, that movement gets weakened as its needs get pushed to the back seat for the needs of the party.
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Old August 30, 2011, 02:55 PM   #9
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I tend to not open carry because it disturbs some people. That's fine, I have an IWB holster or a pocket holster if that's not practical.

Here's an interesting tidbit that I found while reading an Idaho history book that was written by the state's first governor: Early on, before Idaho was a state, most towns banned concealed carry entirely. It wasn't because they were worried about the menace of any old person packing heat. After all, open carry was not only allowed, but rampant. According to Governor McConnell, concealed carry was banned because the city leaders wanted to be sure that if there was going to be a fight, it would be a fair fight. They didn't want a fellow to start a fistfight if his opponent had a heater in his pocket.

Funny thing: from around 1863 until the late 1880s, the prison at Idaho City had no inmates convicted of murder from a gunfight - if both parties were armed, the juries concluded that it was a fair fight and whomever fired the fatal shot was just defending himself. Now, I don't advocate that as a standard. It's just an interesting tidbit of history that shows how times (and laws) have changed.
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Old August 30, 2011, 05:15 PM   #10
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[Open carry is a beautiful thing. Don't knock it until you have tried it.
The feeling of freedom it creates is fantastic!]

I do not find such feelings and beauty in open carry. It is just a method of carry, and in my mind not an especially good way in many circumstances.
NM is a state that permits OC in many instances, but I seldom do so unless on the way to or from the range.

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Old August 30, 2011, 10:06 PM   #11
langenc
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Michigan allows OC.

Most MI CC laws were instituted to keep minorities from carrying.

We also have handgun registration to keep minorities from owning/knowing what they owned/if they owned.
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Old August 30, 2011, 10:25 PM   #12
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I open carry all the time. I carry openly more often than not. I also carry concealed, legally. The beauty is in having the choice. We should have this choice everywhere. Originally, laws against concealed carry were predicated upon the presumption that no honest man needed to conceal his weapon. The presumption was honest men were armed, and carried openly.

Open carry may not be "beautiful," but it sure is a lovely option to have. Good Lord, I don't have to entertain ridiculous concerns about whether I'm printing, or if the wind blows my cover garment up, or any of that silliness.

I love Virginia!
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Old September 1, 2011, 06:07 PM   #13
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Having the choice is good, but it brings with it responsibility. In some places in Texas, it would be ignored. In other places, it could scare people on the street. I think that we have a responsibility to know the community and not carry in a way, or with a demeanor that causes undue concern among our fellow citizens.
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Old September 10, 2011, 06:07 PM   #14
BuzWeaver
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Open carry is a beautiful thing. Don't knock it until you have tried it.
The feeling of freedom it creates is fantastic! I do not know why Florida restricts this right, but it should eliminate the legal barriers as soon as possible. OpenCarry.org is the place to learn about it.
The issue I have with Open Carry where I live is that inevitably there will be a busy body Hall Monitor Gun Nanny that will do a MWAG call. This creates an inconvenience to me and to any individuals I'm with. I respect and enjoy the privilege (Right) to open carry, but sadly the likelihood of being stopped on the way to may car from a restaurant/grocery store/running errands isn't always worth the privilege.
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Old September 10, 2011, 07:05 PM   #15
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by BuzWeaver
The issue I have with Open Carry where I live is that inevitably there will be a busy body Hall Monitor Gun Nanny that will do a MWAG call. This creates an inconvenience to me and to any individuals I'm with. I respect and enjoy the privilege (Right) to open carry, but sadly the likelihood of being stopped on the way to may car from a restaurant/grocery store/running errands isn't always worth the privilege.
This happens only because so few people practice open carry, even where it's legal, that a majority of non-gun people don't even know it's legal. Having more people do it, in more places, would help spread the word that seeing a man wearing a gun does not automatically mean he's a gang banger or a mass murderer.

The other point is that police departments in general seem to take the attitude that they "must" dispatch an officer if they get a MWAG call. Even in jurisdictions where open carry -- even unlicensed open carry -- is 100 percent legal. Why is this? They don't insist on dispatching an officer (plus two more units as backup) for a WWAC (woman with a car) call, yet everyone knows that a car can kill people, and that you MUST have a driver's license to operate a motor vehicle on a public street. Why aren't they checking out every driver on Main Street to ensure that they have a driver's license?

Oh, wait -- the courts have ruled that they can't do that. So what we need is a few people who open carry to push enough buttons to get a few courts to recognize that harassing an open carrier "just because" is unconstitutional, just like stopping a car "just because" has been ruled unconstitutional. Our problem is that we are secretly ashamed of ourselves for carrying guns. We pontificate amongst ourselves that we are the vanguard in exercising the RKBA enshrined in the 2nd Amendment -- and then we hide the fact so nobody will know it. That doesn't help to show the world at large that the vast majority of gun toters are just ordinary, law-abiding citizens.
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Old September 11, 2011, 02:50 PM   #16
hermannr
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The people that cannot carry legally will hide their weapon. They do not want to attract attention to themselves. Those that want to use that weapon for an illegal purpose also will conceal it so they do not attract attention.

The person that legally OC's their weapon is not a criminal, but a law abiding citizen, he has nothing to hide, so he does not hde his legal carry weapon.

Here in WA, and next door in Idaho, Oregon and Montana, OC is completely legal, always has been, and is common. Very few MWAG calls are made because of it, and most of them come in big metro centers like Seattle. Out here where I live the police will not even respond to a MWAG call if the person has his weapon holstered and is doing nothing illegal. I can even walk into my bank OC and no-one will even notice, and if they notice, they say nothing.

May I add: A while back, on another forum, there was a discussion about OC into a contract liqueur store (it is by law specifically legal to carry into a state liqueur store), so I went to town, OC, walked into our local contract liqueur store and asked the owner. She said "everybody does it in here all the time"...like I said, there are no problems when it is a common occurance.

It may upset someone? Rosa Parks sitting in the front of the bus upset a lot of people in Alabama back in 1955. All I can say is "good for her", those people "offended" needed to be offended. The same goes for the people that wish to restrict our right to carry. They need to be offended, until they understand that the RIGHT to carry is just as normal as a black person is sitting in the front of the bus.

Last edited by hermannr; September 11, 2011 at 02:57 PM.
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Old September 11, 2011, 04:31 PM   #17
Aguila Blanca
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Originally Posted by hermannr
Here in WA, and next door in Idaho, Oregon and Montana, OC is completely legal, always has been, and is common. Very few MWAG calls are made because of it, and most of them come in big metro centers like Seattle. Out here where I live the police will not even respond to a MWAG call if the person has his weapon holstered and is doing nothing illegal. I can even walk into my bank OC and no-one will even notice, and if they notice, they say nothing.
Not responding to a nuisance call is exactly the way things should be. Yet on another forum, in a very recent thread that's still generating traffic, I have had two police officers and a dispatcher tell me that "ALL" MWAG calls WILL result in an officer being sent "to check it out" because "guns are so dangerous."

In fact, these geniuses even took issue with the suggestion that the dispatcher fielding a MWAG call perhaps ought to at least ask the caller what the subject was doing with the gun. No, our intrepid heroes were in lock step that the only appropriate response is to send armed officers to check it out -- and even if the "subject" turns out to be a family man with wife and two kids, loading up on Pampers in the baby aisle of Wal-Mart, they think it's more appropriate to hassle the guy who isn't breaking any laws rather than simply inform the caller that open carry is legal, don't bother us again.

The incident that generated that discussion was in an eastern state, and one of the LEOs in the discussion claims he was the actual responding officer. Must be something in the water east of the Appalachians.
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Old September 11, 2011, 05:40 PM   #18
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The campus in question is NOT some rural isolated farm or small town - it is a VERY liberal University - often called a island of blue in a sea of red, as the counties surrounding Alachua are very conservative. Where he lives, the MWAG call wold be responded to with a SWAT team and campus lockdown
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Old September 11, 2011, 07:29 PM   #19
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As outline in the Georgia Weapons Carry FAQ:

Q: Do I need to carry my firearm concealed or may I carry openly?
A: Under the law, a Georgia Weapons License holder may carry a weapon or longgun openly or concealed in any location that is not off limits. However, should you choose to openly carry a handgun, please be aware of the image you present to the public while doing so. They vote.


I saw this video today on open carry and this guy in the video has pulled off a feat that if not on video would most likely never be believed. I'm willing to bet that if this centered around him filming a Police stop or contesting audio recording laws people's comments would have been more supportive of his extraordinary bravado. Approaching a Police Officer during a stop, especially while Open Carrying can't be very wise, especially if your intention is to protect your friend from some sort of Police misconduct. Based on what I saw in the beginning this guy appears to be a Libertarian at best guess, as I saw the Ron Paul sticker and the sticker that read "I'm authorized to question authority". If there is such a thing as The Brass Ball Awards this guy would be its founder.

Police Confront Man For Open Carry Legally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SHHW...35006F&index=4

Last edited by BuzWeaver; September 11, 2011 at 07:35 PM.
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Old September 11, 2011, 09:28 PM   #20
Tom Servo
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If there is such a thing as The Brass Ball Awards this guy would be its founder.
As a matter of fact, there is. Google "Free Keene." They're a bunch of disaffected suburbanites who take it upon themselves to harass the police. Their antics include taping police officers (and civilians, without their consent) in a manner designed to provoke confrontation. When they get it, they're showered with praise from their buddies on the internet. Other antics include walking around public while drinking in order to protest open-container laws, and "topless Tuesday," which I don't think needs elaboration.

They frequently throw firearms into the mix, and that's where it hurts us. If open carry is about convincing people that those of us who carry are normal folks, how does it look when a group of folks choose to open carry while surrounding an officer writing a traffic citation and screaming at him?

I'm all for exposing corruption and civil rights violations, but we've got a whole subculture that's turned it into morbid ambulance chasing. If this keeps going, sooner or later, we'll have a situation under which real violations happen, but nobody notices them under the flotsam of the other 351,225,854 YouTube videos purporting to portray it.

That guy's not a hero, he's an attention-starved primadonna who drapes his antics in the guise of politics.
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Old September 11, 2011, 09:59 PM   #21
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Must be something in the water east of the Appalachians.
It's not in the water: its in the political geography: Too much Government per square mile!
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Old September 11, 2011, 10:29 PM   #22
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As outline in the Georgia Weapons Carry FAQ:

Q: Do I need to carry my firearm concealed or may I carry openly?
A: Under the law, a Georgia Weapons License holder may carry a weapon or longgun openly or concealed in any location that is not off limits. However, should you choose to openly carry a handgun, please be aware of the image you present to the public while doing so. They vote.
The OP is talking about Gainesville Florida, not Georgia and on a campus, not just a city street. They even ban conservative guest speakers, let alone "evil" guns
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Old September 11, 2011, 10:34 PM   #23
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They even ban conservative guest speakers, let alone "evil" guns
If they ban the First Amendment, what chance has the Second?
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