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Old August 4, 2011, 11:57 PM   #1
AfterLife
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remington shotgun made in 1900 - got a ?

Guy come in the shop today had a gun his great grandpa has had for years and years.

Here is the question. Got me to wondering when the guy come in and I told him I am not sure if legal or not and got me curious so asking...

This gun is a Remington SxS Shotgun.
I looked up the numbers and the whole gun is matching.
It was made in 1900.

Problem:
The double barrel has been chopped to 17 3/4" and has a pistol type handle that has been cut down from the stock. This looks to have been done YEARS ago. He said it hasnt been fired in according to his father about 40+.

Is this gun at all legal in any way or would it be considered a SBS???
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Old August 5, 2011, 02:09 AM   #2
ogree
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Unless the shotgun was manufactured by Remington that way it is an unregistered short barrel.
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Old August 7, 2011, 10:53 AM   #3
fal308
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IIRC If it was pre 1899 you could be okay or not, depending on gauge. 1898 is the legal cutoff between "modern" and antique firearms.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...e-firearm.html
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Old August 7, 2011, 12:07 PM   #4
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It's illegal, don't touch it. Age doesn't matter if it fires readily available ammo.

Determinants for Classification: Even though this weapon may exhibit a barrel shorter than 18 inches, it is subject to NFA regulations governing minimum dimensions because it employs a conventional ignition system and uses fixed ammunition that is readily available through ordinary channels of commercial trade. Consequently, this weapon would be classified as a “short-barreled Shotgun” and therefore all NFA regulations.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/i...e-firearm.html
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Old August 7, 2011, 01:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Unless the shotgun was manufactured by Remington that way it is an unregistered short barrel.
It wouldn't matter if Remington made it that way or not it's still a smooth bore under 18 inches.
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:45 PM   #6
chasep255
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Weld something on the end to bring it up to length.
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In NJ, technically speaking, ALL guns are illegal
Also in my state there is such thing as a Class III BB gun :barf:
Happy to say that despite the NJ AWB I still manage to make my guns look scary
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Old August 7, 2011, 08:49 PM   #7
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It's just screaming for "permanent" screw in chokes
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Old August 8, 2011, 02:39 AM   #8
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Quote:
It's just screaming for "permanent" screw in chokes
They would have to be soldered in or otherwise permanently attached but yeah that would work. It would look a little funny tho.
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Old August 8, 2011, 12:49 PM   #9
Vanya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterLife
Problem:
The double barrel has been chopped to 17 3/4" and has a pistol type handle that has been cut down from the stock.
Sounds like a new stock might be in order, too, to bring it up to the minimum length of 26".

Measure twice, stay out of jail once, or words to that effect...
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Old August 8, 2011, 08:40 PM   #10
AfterLife
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I wasn't 100% on what to tell the guy. Other than I don't think it's legal.

He said "Oh!!!"

I don't want anything to do with it. Just thought I would ask to see if I was thinking correctly.

Appreciate all the replys. If the guy comes back and mentions it I will tell him.
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Old September 4, 2011, 01:51 AM   #11
gyvel
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Quote:
Unless the shotgun was manufactured by Remington that way it is an unregistered short barrel.
Quote:
It wouldn't matter if Remington made it that way or not it's still a smooth bore under 18 inches.
Not exactly sure about this, but I think you can get a special ruling from BATF IF the gun was made that way by Remington.

The Smith & Wesson 9mm carbine made in 1940 for the Brits is a good example of that. The guns have 10" barrels that would otherwise make them SBRs, but BATF removed them from the NFA.
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Old September 4, 2011, 01:27 PM   #12
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If that was the case the snake guns made by Crescent and H&R would be legal.
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Old September 4, 2011, 04:09 PM   #13
medalguy
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Those are not "short barrel shotguns" but "any other weapon" classification. They are legal but do require registration and $5 transfer.
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Old September 4, 2011, 10:11 PM   #14
gyvel
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Quote:
If that was the case the snake guns made by Crescent and H&R would be legal.
Good point; I think it would depend on whether the Remington was a very uncommon special order, and then it would still be up to BATF to say "yea" or "nay."

Like I said, the S&W 9mm carbine is very definitely an NFA weapon by BATF's definition, yet they removed it from NFA status, even though it's got a 10" barrel.

The primary difference between the H&R Handy Guns, Ithaca Auto Burglars, etc., is that they were common production weapons and thousands were produced.

I suspect in this case, however, that the shotgun was chopped at some point in its life, and therefore the OP should run, not walk, away from it.
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Old September 5, 2011, 08:58 PM   #15
AfterLife
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i dont think this gun he brought in was a factory gun, i think it had been sawed off a long long time ago.

but not sure.
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Old September 6, 2011, 12:59 AM   #16
gyvel
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Then he's asking for trouble unless he has sleeves soldered or welded to the ends of the barrels.
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Old September 6, 2011, 01:45 PM   #17
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Adding chokes sounds great EXCEPT...

The gun is now, today, illegal, and the owner, now, today, is committing a crime. And any gunsmith would commit a crime by taking the gun in and by working on it. Technically, even those who know about it and don't report it are committing a crime.

The owner can't even destroy it, since that would be destroying evidence of a felony, the felony being owning the gun in the first place.

Legally, the only thing the owner can do is to turn the gun in to BATFE or the police.

Jim
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Old September 6, 2011, 02:28 PM   #18
Hawg
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Quote:
Legally, the only thing the owner can do is to turn the gun in to BATFE or the police.
Not the gun, just the barrels.
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Old September 6, 2011, 09:01 PM   #19
highvel
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We were discussing a what????
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:40 AM   #20
jrothWA
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Locate from pld part shop any replacement barrel, or

consider stubbing the chamber area and fitting new made barrels into the stub, make it a 16 or 20 ga. There's a method for lining the old damascus barrel called "Teague", see if that is an option.

Best chop the shorten across the chambers to eliminate them.

buy replacement stock from Wenig's, likely be expensive as it's not a stocked item.

The action and stock are no problem once restocked full length, barrels are.

Last edited by jrothWA; September 8, 2011 at 08:44 AM. Reason: barrel rework
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:53 PM   #21
AfterLife
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but what if he registered it on a form 3
or what would it be considered? a sbs or "any other weapon"

like on sons of guns - red jacket made a "leopard gun" they called it



not sure, i have not seen the guy back in the store and dont know his name either....... but still curious
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Old September 9, 2011, 11:12 PM   #22
Willie Lowman
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Quote:
what if he registered it on a form 3
Form 3 is for dealer to dealer transfer. You might be thinking of form 1. That is the form used to register a new SBS or other NFA firearm. Thing is, the approved form 1 has to come back from the BATF before the work is done to shorten barrels etc. It is not legal to register a sawed off shotgun after the fact.

Quote:
what would it be considered? a sbs or "any other weapon"
An unregistered SBS.

Quote:
like on sons of guns
I fail to see the similarity between a TV show about a title 2 manufacturer and an old illegal sawed off shotgun.

Last edited by Willie Lowman; September 9, 2011 at 11:17 PM.
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Old September 9, 2011, 11:28 PM   #23
James K
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AfterLife, the Form 3 is for a tax-free transfer from one Class 3 dealer to another (and a few other cases). It is not a way an unregistered NFA firearm can be registered.

Hawg, I am not sure just turning in the barrels would satisfy BATFE; they usually consider the receiver the gun and would want the owner to abandon the gun, not just part of it. Besides, getting a set of legal barrels for an old Remington shotgun would be next to impossible, and the gun is not worth enough to even bother.

There are always folks who claim to have some special way to get illegal NFA weapons registered and made legal. Someone claims to know someone who knows someone who does it all the time and has no problem. I confess to skepticism and have an idea that bringing an illegal gun to the "someone" could be the wrong move.

Jim
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