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Old September 6, 2011, 04:36 PM   #26
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
I never said it was the best, but if it was all I had Iwould not hesitqate to use it.
If one has to improvise, he must use what he has as best he can.

If one can choose, one can do a lot better than a .22.
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Old September 6, 2011, 06:08 PM   #27
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I never said it was the best, but if it was all I had Iwould not hesitqate to use it.
When you say that you have taken all types of animals with the 22 and post that indians have taken huge polar bear with it you are suggesting that because of this it is good for self defense against a violent human.

Quote:
Like I said, if a 22 was all I had Iwould not run and hide, I would use the durn thing effectivly. I know how to shoot the thing.
So I would like to see you perform against a charging polar bear with your 22. Seems the task is much harder when your prey won't sit still and allow you to pick the sweet spot.
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Old September 7, 2011, 02:52 PM   #28
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Quote:
you are suggesting that because of this it is good for self defense against a violent human.
If it is all you have its better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Quote:
So I would like to see you perform against a charging polar bear with your 22. Seems the task is much harder when your prey won't sit still and allow you to pick the sweet spot
Well since you are not up on their hunting methods I will say not one was charging, they sneak up on the bear and shoot it in the rear legs as it will bleed out, they follow it till it dies and they eat. Sounds more like using their heads more than getting the largest caliber and being able to use what they have to survive.

Why cant you guys understand some old timers just dont go with your flow?
Bigger isnt always better.

My carry is a colt new agent in .45 acp fyi. But in the barn is a 22 in the truck is a 22 in the tractors cab is a 22.

What happened to using your head and adapting to what you have on hand?

You guys kill me when will it be enough for ya? a 600 nitro? lol miss that first shot the guy with a 22 will shoot 10 or 12 times... or dont you think you might just miss that first shot? lol
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Old September 7, 2011, 06:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...they sneak up on the bear and shoot it in the rear legs as it will bleed out, they follow it till it dies and they eat...
And exactly what does that have to do with defending oneself against a violent attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...What happened to using your head and adapting to what you have on hand?...
Making do in an emergency with what you have is one thing. Choosing a cartridge for self defense is another. And if you have the opportunity to choose in advance of need, and you choose the .22 lr, you're not necessarily using your head. Under most circumstance, you'd be making a lousy choice.

It's too bad you don't seem to recognize the difference between improvising in extremis and preparing ahead of time.

There may be extraordinary circumstances in which the .22 lr could be a reasonable choice -- if one is infirm and simply can't manage anything bigger, for example. But if one can choose ahead of time and manage something bigger, a .22 lr is a poor choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...Why cant you guys understand some old timers just dont go with your flow?...
I, for one, don't care whether or not you "go with my flow." What I care about are newcomers who visit this, and other boards, to learn and who might get sidetracked by someone's poor or misleading information.
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Old September 7, 2011, 07:06 PM   #30
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What he said
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Old September 7, 2011, 07:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
If it is all you have its better than a sharp stick in the eye.
Not necessarily


Quote:
So I would like to see you perform against a charging polar bear with your 22. Seems the task is much harder when your prey won't sit still and allow you to pick the sweet spot
Quote:
Well since you are not up on their hunting methods I will say not one was charging, they sneak up on the bear and shoot it in the rear legs as it will bleed out,
This discussion isn't about hunting methods, but about self defense.

Quote:
Why cant you guys understand some old timers just dont go with your flow?
Because being old just provide justification in the absence of data.

Quote:
Bigger isnt always better.
You are right. It isn't. When it comes to don't tissue damage for the purposes of self defense, bigger is better much more often than not.

As for going with the flow...you are the one swimming up stream.
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Old September 7, 2011, 08:44 PM   #32
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DNS, I used the charging polar bear as an example based on something familiar to Mark, hunting, to help him understand the difference between hunting and self defense. Shot placement being hyper important with the puny little 22 and very difficult to achieve on a moving deadly threat.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:23 AM   #33
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I understand about the example. markj keeps talking about hunting as if hunting had anything to do with self defense in this situation. You tried to cater to his out of context references by bringing up self defense against a charging animal. That still isn't hunting, of course, but markj's responses still seem to indicate that just because it can be done, killing an animal with a .22, that somehow it means the caliber is suitable for self defense or has a strong likelihood of being effective in self defense.

You can kill a polar bear with an ice pick, but that doesn't make it a good weapon for self defense either.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:53 AM   #34
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Gotcha
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Old September 8, 2011, 04:49 PM   #35
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Quote:
to help him understand the difference between hunting and self defense.
I know the diff you guys are getting under my skin here.

I SAID I CARRY A 45 BUT IF ALL I HAD WAS A 22 I WOULD USE IT.

CANT YOU READ? OR DO YOU JUST CHOOSE TO POST AND THINK YOU ARE ALL THAT?

I was shot by a bad guy once, stabbed another time. I have a bit of xp. with bad folks and getting hurt and avoiding getting hurt.

I dont want a newbie to think he is unarmed if all he has is a 22. Now go on and post I dont know this and Idont know that crap. I do know how to defend myself and have done so successfully in the past. I survived a shooting hows about you?

Quote:
If it is all you have its better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Not necessarily
So you would rather have a stick in yer hand before you would pick up a 22 and use it? in sd? wow is all I can say.


Next you will be telling me I need hps instead of fmj....just like a comercial.
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Old September 8, 2011, 05:47 PM   #36
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I always heard that if you wanted to really mess a bad guy up, to shoot him in the head with a .22, because the bullet goes in & then just rattles around inside the skull, pretty much guaranteeing immobilisation. Bigger calibers go through?
I'm not at all knowledgeable about using a gun for SD; hope it doesn't come down to that. Given a choice between using my little .22 revolver and some bad guy stealing my stuff or harming my family, I'm going to use my head & all available cover, and put as many of the 9 available rounds in dude's face.
I feel I could probably be somewhat less judicious with the 17 rounds in my 9mm, however.

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Old September 8, 2011, 06:03 PM   #37
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I know the diff you guys are getting under my skin here.

I SAID I CARRY A 45 BUT IF ALL I HAD WAS A 22 I WOULD USE IT.

CANT YOU READ? OR DO YOU JUST CHOOSE TO POST AND THINK YOU ARE ALL THAT?
Maybe you missed it, but the discussion was not about what you carry.

Quote:
I dont want a newbie to think he is unarmed if all he has is a 22. Now go on and post I dont know this and Idont know that crap. I do know how to defend myself and have done so successfully in the past. I survived a shooting hows about you?
Just because you are old and have been injured does not mean that a .22 is a good round for self defense just like just because you have killed a lot of animals with it does not mean it is good for self defense.

Nobody here has suggested or intimated that only having a .22 means that you are unarmed. In fact, that would be 100% counter to the definition of being armed. I would suggest you reread the thread if that was your concern. I think you will be relieved to know that newbies won't be confused even if you may have been.

Quote:
So you would rather have a stick in yer hand before you would pick up a 22 and use it? in sd? wow is all I can say.
No. Apparently despite quoting me, you did not actually read and understand the words I wrote. I made no statement as to my preference. I simply pointed out that a .22 is not necessarily better than a stick in the eye.
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; September 8, 2011 at 10:14 PM.
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Old September 8, 2011, 06:18 PM   #38
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No deadly force for "stuff"


Quote:
Given a choice between using my little .22 revolver and some bad guy stealing my stuff or harming my family, I'm going to use my head & all available cover, and put as many of the 9 available rounds in dude's face.
Speedfreeq, remember that you cannot use deadly force to protect your "stuff". Deadly force can only be justified if you are in grave danger to life or limb (rape qualifies as grave danger to life or limb). Get to know the laws for your area NOW so you don't make a really bad mistake!
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Old September 8, 2011, 06:19 PM   #39
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I dont want a newbie to think he is unarmed if all he has is a 22.
And we don't want the newbie to think that because you say it will kill a giant polar bear that it is a good choice for self defense.

Quote:
So you would rather have a stick in yer hand before you would pick up a 22 and use it? in sd? wow is all I can say
I think you said a sharp stick in the eye vs a 22.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:08 PM   #40
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...you guys are getting under my skin here...
Really? You're not willing to have others challenge your notions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...IF ALL I HAD WAS A 22 I WOULD USE IT...
You're still ignoring the difference between having to make do in an emergency and being able to prepare in advance of need.

If all I had was a .22, of course I'd use that. If all I had was a sharp stick, I'd use that. If all I had was a fireplace poker, I'd use that. But when I choose what I'm going to [legally] carry around with me in case I may have to defend myself, I'm not going to choose a .22, a sharp stick or a fireplace poker. There are better choices.

The fact that one implement or another can be pressed into service for self defense in an emergency when nothing else is at hand doesn't necessarily make a wise choice if you have the opportunity to choose in advance of need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
....DO YOU JUST CHOOSE TO POST AND THINK YOU ARE ALL THAT?...
This makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...I dont want a newbie to think he is unarmed if all he has is a 22...
And you continue to confuse having to make do in an emergency with what's at hand with being able to choose and prepare in advance of need. The points for the novice are (1) in an emergency one will have to make do with what you have at hand, even if it wouldn't be the best choice; and (2) a .22 is a poor choice if one can prepare and can handle effectively something bigger than a .22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...Now go on and post I dont know this and Idont know that crap....
What you may know or not know is apparent from your posts and the various responses to your posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
...Next you will be telling me I need hps instead of fmj....
Again, it's a question of making a choice. If one has a choice, JHPs are a better choice for self defense applications. That's what pretty much every law enforcement agency uses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreeq
...using my little .22 revolver and some bad guy stealing my stuff...
In most States, if you use lethal force to stop someone from merely stealing, there's an excellent chance that you will be going to jail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreeq
...I'm going to use my head & all available cover, and put as many of the 9 available rounds in dude's face....
Are you really good enough to be able to do that reliably under the stress of a violent encounter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreeq
...I feel I could probably be somewhat less judicious with the 17 rounds in my 9mm, however...
Bad thinking.

[1] Shot placement is of course vital with small calibers like the .22. But shot placement remains important if you hope to effectively and quickly stop an attacker even when you're using a more powerful gun.

[2] Spraying the countryside with 9mm bullets, and putting innocents in jeopardy, is irresponsible and a very bad idea.

speedfreeq, it looks like you would benefit from some good, professional training.
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Old September 8, 2011, 08:40 PM   #41
speedfreeq
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post

speedfreeq, it looks like you would benefit from some good, professional training.
Thanks guy. Really.

The only thing you know about me you gleaned from a single post from a new forum member.
I'm a veteran, with a valid CCW and a decent shot group.

"It looks like you would benefit from some good" taking yourself a little less seriously.

I was simply participating in a conversation. Was unaware there was a professor lecturing... my bad.


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Old September 8, 2011, 08:53 PM   #42
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreeq
...I'm a veteran, with a valid CCW and a decent shot group...
Thanks for your service.

However, it's still not obvious that you fully understand self defense issues, especially when you make statements like, "...using my little .22 revolver and some bad guy stealing my stuff ..." or "...put as many of the 9 available rounds in dude's face. I feel I could probably be somewhat less judicious with the 17 rounds in my 9mm,..." One may draw inferences about what you know from what you write.

And having a valid CCW is a fine thing, but many States have no training requirement to get a CCW; and even in all of the States with a training requirement, it's pretty minimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreeq
...Was unaware there was a professor lecturing... my bad.
Well you're welcome to check out my profile here on the board.
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Old September 8, 2011, 09:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post

Well you're welcome to check out my profile here on the board.
No need. You're the guy who gets to win the internet forum argument. Congrats.


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Old September 8, 2011, 09:45 PM   #44
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speedfreeq, your comments fully justified fiddletown's feedback. If you believe your own remarks, then your training and judgement are suspect.

If you just threw them out there to be funny, please realize a lot of people who don't have much training and who don't know any better might take them seriously.

Either way, you are not representing yourself well.
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Old September 8, 2011, 10:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by MLeake View Post
speedfreeq, your comments fully justified fiddletown's feedback. If you believe your own remarks, then your training and judgement are suspect.

If you just threw them out there to be funny, please realize a lot of people who don't have much training and who don't know any better might take them seriously.

Either way, you are not representing yourself well.
I see this is the thread that just gets more and more ridiculous, drawing all parties back in repeatedly to clarify, justify, or simply argue.

For the record and the benefit of any random persons who seem to find themselves concerned, I am indeed aware of the definition and fairly narrow permitted use of deadly force. I understand that I may not haphazardly fire upon an innocent mugger or burglar unless I'm reasonably sure I'm in vital danger.

Furthermore, I apologize profusely for contributing to an increasingly absurd argument that was already considerably OT with an equally absurd statement ironically meant to draw attention to the aforementioned absurdity.

As for the matter of how I'm representing myself... it's an internet forum; ergo, it's essentially a futile exercise. Think of me what you will. You're probably wrong.

Done here. Forget you saw me.

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Old September 8, 2011, 10:20 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by speedfreeq
...Think of me what you will. You're probably wrong....
You chose the way in which you presented yourself here, so you have nothing to complain about.
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Old September 9, 2011, 05:46 AM   #47
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WOW That was major funny. Speedfreeq very funny. You absolutely deserved what you got but it was a blast. If you were joking you should have said so. If not you should be corrected. Thanks all the same for making this morning bright.
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:30 AM   #48
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Wow.

We have someone drawing conclusions from a single gunfight, with some importance attributed to which of the wounded survived and which did not.

We have reference to "a caliber despised for allegedly lacking stopping power (9mm)".

We have someone believing that a "valid CCW and a decent shot group" equips him for a violent encounter with one or more assailants....

...who contends that, in an encounter in which deadly force is justified because it is immediately necessary to defend against imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, he will somehow be able to shoot an attacker in the face nine times before being overcome.

We have people introducing hunting experience and the slaughter of livestock into the discussion.

All of this is under a topic called "what matters is shot placement."

So, what should the neophyte take into account?
  1. From threegun, "shot placement is what matters once you have a cartridge that can reach the vitals even through appendages"; many people consider a .380 ACP to be the minimum for that, while others would opt for at least a .38 Special or a 9MM.
  2. The assailant is likely to be moving rapidly, and one's ability to produce decent groups on a stationary target is unlikely to translate into an ability to hit that assailant in any particular place.
  3. It is likely that two or perhaps several very rapid shots will be required to hit and effectively stop the assailant; that means that a firearm that is too light to control in rapid fire, or a cartridge that recoils too violently, would not be a good choice.

Finally, relevant training is extremely important.
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:41 AM   #49
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Good post, Old Marksman.

I'd add the following:

1) A .22 that the shooter can handle and is willing to carry is much better than nothing (and old age, arthritis, small stature can potentially limit somebody to a .22, based on hand strength).

2) However, a round that has better penetration, more reliable ignition (IE centerfire), and a good probability of breaking bone, if it hits large bone, is better - assuming one can carry and control it.

3) Learning to "shoot to stop" will get people to quit fixating on round count, per se; it takes what it takes, under the circumstances in which it occurs; this could be one shot, or it could be a dozen.

4) Given 3) more capacity is never a bad thing.

5) Something I almost never see brought up, when people talk about carrying spare ammunition, is that it might be nice to be able to reload, after the encounter, for the period between the shooting and the arrival of the police. The BG might have friends.
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Old September 9, 2011, 08:47 AM   #50
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Excellent additions, MLeake.
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