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Old August 28, 2011, 04:54 AM   #1
micksis86
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some casting questions from a novice

Hi,
I’m just about to start casting my own bullets for both rifles and pistols. As I don’t know anyone that casts I have to learn what I can from this forum and all the other research that I’ve done on YouTube and the internet. After doing this research I’ve got a few questions which I haven’t really been able to find a definitive answer to.
1. I want to load my cast bullets at original military ballistics. This means that I’d need to push a 150gr projectile to 2700fps in my P17. The research I’ve done indicates that this isn’t really possible even with properly sized projectiles and gas checks.
Am i correct in assuming this or is there a way that i could achieve this velocity?

2. How do I attach gas checks? Can I attach them using my normal press and a LEE sizing kit or will I need to find another method?


3. Realistically using the correctly sized projectiles, gas checks and LEE liquid alox what is the most velocity i could realistically achieve out of the rifle barrels of my Mosin Nagant and P17?
Thanks a lot in advance for all your help I really appreciate it.
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Last edited by Shane Tuttle; August 29, 2011 at 06:30 AM. Reason: BULLETS.....
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Old August 28, 2011, 07:39 AM   #2
armoredman
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Velocities are going to be based on several things, most importantly what load you are using. You build the load. You can drive the projectile at any velocity you are able to, but if the cast slug is going too fast it can strip through the rifling, keyholing or disintegrating in flight, and very likely leaving leading behind. Follow normal loading work-ups with lead projectiles.
Gas checks are dirt simple - when sizing the boolit, snap the gas check on before raising the ram on your Lee sizer. The action of the sizer will fit the gas check on snugly.
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Old August 28, 2011, 07:54 AM   #3
PawPaw
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Welcome to the world of cast bullets. I agree that the Lee sizer works well to install gas checks. That's all I've ever used and have no complaints. One thing to be careful of is that some alloys cool differently than other alloys, which means that they come out different sizes. I used one alloy several years ago that cooled very close to mold size and I couldn't get a gas check to fit the base of the bullet. I re-melted them all, added a little linotype and the gas checks snapped right on. Easy-peasy.

Another thing to consider is the rotational velocity of the bullet. As you drive a bullet faster the RPM increases. For example, in my 1:12 twist Winchester, a bullet driven to 1850 fps will be spinning at 111K. When I drive that same bullet through my 1:10 twist Marlin, the RMP jumps to 133K. I find that if I put that load through my Marlin the bullets start spinning themselves apart before they reach the target, while they'll fly just fine when shot through the slower twist barrel. As such, I try to limit that particular bullet to spinning less than 115K. If I had a 1:14 twist barrel, I could drive them faster.

Welcome to the hobby. It gives a new dimension to the reloading process and should provide plenty of enjoyment to you in the future.
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Old August 28, 2011, 11:23 AM   #4
snuffy
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Quote:
1. I want to load my cast boolits at original military ballistics. This means that I’d need to push a 150gr projectile to 2700fps in my P17. The research I’ve done indicates that this isn’t really possible even with properly sized projectiles and gas checks.
Am i correct in assuming this or is there a way that i could achieve this velocity? 2700 would be very difficult to achieve. 2200 is much more realistic, and it will be a good load. Why do you think this is necessary? Most cast bullets are not very streamlined, so they will not shoot as flat as a pointy jacketed bullet, even though they leave the muzzle at the same velocity.

2. How do I attach gas checks? Can I attach them using my normal press and a LEE sizing kit or will I need to find another method?Just push them on, then push them through the lee sizer. It swages them on as it sizes the bullet.


3. Realistically using the correctly sized projectiles, gas checks and LEE liquid alox what is the most velocity i could realistically achieve out of the rifle barrels of my Mosin Nagant and P17? Again, most consider 2200 as the upper limit for cast boolits in rifles. The lee liquid alox is a good lube, but some have found it has an upper velocity limit of around 1800 fps. Another thing, bullet fit is king. By that I mean you must "slug" your bore to KNOW the bore outside diameter to size your bullet to that size + .001-.002 BIGGER.
Thanks a lot in advance for all your help I really appreciate it.
Hope that answers some of your questions. Please feel free to ask more, as I'm sure you will have others as you start casting.
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Old August 28, 2011, 09:22 PM   #5
GP100man
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Nuttin to add to the excellent posts !!!

Except welcome to the addiction of casting !!!!

Just take ya time & enjoy & let ya rifle tell ya what it likes !

Quiting casting is easy , I`ve done it hundreds of times !!!! Really
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Old August 28, 2011, 09:55 PM   #6
jmortimer
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You need to spend some time at Cast Boolits web site. That is the graduate school of cast boolits.
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Old August 28, 2011, 10:10 PM   #7
salvadore
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I wonder if heat treated bullets could be accurate at that speed..I sized and then heated bullets for an hour @450F then quenched. They seemed to be a heck of a lot harder than lino. I use to shoot a .223 remington #1 Ruger with rcbs,s 55gr flat point at around 2300 with linotype. maybe I should try that again in my CZ.
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Old August 29, 2011, 12:24 AM   #8
micksis86
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That's true GP100man, They've been excellent posts and answerd my questions perfectly. No doubt i'll have more.

The reason i was interested in such velocity although i knew it wasn't really possible is that i wanted to cast mainly for my military rifles and wanted to replicate the ballistics of the military load as close as i could.

Now I know that isn't possible perhaps i'll just try and see how I go maybe 2000fps might be a realistic target.

Thanks again for your answers guys great help.
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Old August 29, 2011, 06:00 AM   #9
GP100man
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2,000-2200 fs is a more realistic goal for commonly available alloys , now if ya go & get some specialty alloys say from Roto metals then some extra RPMs are obtainable .

I`m really not a milsurp follower ,though I do have a couple of M44s here .

What`s the twist on your P17 ???
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Old August 29, 2011, 08:01 AM   #10
hornetguy
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You can certainly load and shoot cast bullets higher than 2200 fps. I haven't looked at any loads for the '06, but I'm pretty sure you can do better than 2200.
The question is, whether it will be worth the extra effort to get there. It will take some experimenting with bullet alloys, and probably bullet lubes (hard or soft), bullet types (how many grease grooves, etc), then working out which powder will be best for achieving those velocities..
It can be done, but it's more work than most casters are willing to put in, for the minimal gains. It seems that cast bullets work about as well at 2200-2300 fps as they do at 2600-2700... they just don't have to go as fast as a jacketed bullet to get their maximum deformation/upset for game killing.
Plus, cast bullets have to be borderline perfect to give you the accuracy you want at those speeds. Flaws are magnified exponentially, it seems like. A surface flaw or internal air bubble might not affect accuracy much at lower speeds, but the higher rotational forces can really expose less than perfect bullets.... as in "where'd THAT flier come from" kind of things..

I've been working on some cast loads in my Mosin, and haven't really pushed the limit on speed yet.. and probably won't. I'm more of an "accuracy over velocity" kind of guy... within reason, of course.
If I can get a 170-180gr bullet to around 2200-2300 fps that is accurate, that's good enough for me.
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Old August 29, 2011, 06:56 PM   #11
PawPaw
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Your post started me thinking about an old practice that I had forgotten about. Paper Patching. It's a rather archaic art, but Col Harrison of the NRA did some work years ago and found that he could drive cast bullets fully as fast as jacketed bullets with good accuracy.

I started digging around in my mental archives and doing some Googling and found this tutorial on paper patching. LINKY!. After you've learned the basics of casting, you might want to explore paper patching.

Heck, I might explore paper patching in the springtime. I've got a couple of old .30-30s that I should dust off.
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