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Old August 15, 2011, 10:31 PM   #1
Rangefinder
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PP .32 Win Spl

So I've been playing with PP'ing for my .32 Winchester for a while now and am really impressed with what has turned out with it. Accuracy is fantastic--it's well within minute-of-heart-shot on a deer at 100 yds, so it's back to being a superb brush gun that it was originally intended to be.

I was curious what kind of penetration I was getting with the alloy and velocities I was running on it. I don't have a chrony anymore since a buddy sent mine to chrony-heaven some time ago and never bothered replacing it. BUT... this is a .321 lyman 155gr. flat nose squeezed down to .311 then patched back up with 2 wraps of notebook paper and loaded over 29.5gr. H335 for the bottom end of a full jacketed load and a listed velocity just under 2100FPS. The target/catch was 1" dry phone book, 1-gallon water jug, a second 1-gallon water jug, a 5-gallon water jug (square, so a full 12" front to back), 2" dry phone book, and finally a big log (my chopping block--ponderosa pine).

I expected the phone book to be a minor issue.
I expected the first jug to get ripped apart.
I expected the second jug to be in a serious state of disarray.

What I DIDN'T expect was the 5-gallon jug to be split nearly completely in half vertically, nor did I expect full penetration of the back phone book and to have to dig the boolit out of the pine log with 1 1/2 inches of penetration!


Patched weight is 157gr. Final weight after digging it out of the log was 110.5gr and portions of the nose were in the bottom of what was left of the 5-gallon jug which brought the total recovered weight up to 139.4gr.

The result? I'd use this on any deer in the country and not feel totally under-powered if I had to use it on an elk with a broadside shot.

I'm impressed!
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Old August 16, 2011, 01:37 AM   #2
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That's a great idea RF, I've got 3 molds for my 32 spec. and they all run into the rifling when seated bullet base to the bottom of the neck even when I size the nose to .311. I need a design that starts to taper right above where I crimp like the factory jacketed, and yours do. I get pretty good accuracy, 2" 8shot group at 50yds. Eyesight is the limiting factor for me.
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Old August 16, 2011, 07:05 AM   #3
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For those induced to try and duplicate what you have done, what lubricant have you applied to the outside of the paper patch?
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Old August 16, 2011, 09:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
For those induced to try and duplicate what you have done, what lubricant have you applied to the outside of the paper patch?
My process is pretty simple. I use lined notebook paper for the patch with the lines running perpendicular to the boolit. 60-degree angle on the ends with a 2" wrap puts it right on the money. Apply the patch wet, pig-tail it and let it dry. Then I use a finger-rub of LLA on the dry patch and run the whole thing through my sizer once it dries (best to run it through a push-through backwards). Inspect, load, and shoot. This combo is the best I've come across for PP'ing. LLA holds the patch tight much better than lithium grease ever did--I have a bunch of patched unloaded boolits sitting ont he shelf that I rolled over the winter and they're still as tight as ever but haven't swelled or shrunk from initial sizing one iota--very solid. The bonus seems to be that the LLA only seals the top layer, so it doesn't glue the patch to the boolit and doesn't need to since the patch shrinks around the existing lube grooves to hold tight. The results so far is that I get confetti every time on a very consistent, tight patch.

I'll be honest that I haven't done a whole lot of experimenting with PP'ing on this one so I don't have any variants for patch size, lube, etc to toss at you. This was the first combo I tried on this rifle and it worked so well right out of the gate that I haven't messed with it. The only thing I might do now is to soften my alloy a little for a better expansion.

salvadore>> The mold I'm using is Lyman that was intended for the 32-40 at .319. I lapped it out to .322 and size to .321 for my standard cast boolit loads and squeeze them down to .311 for PP'ing. It drops at 155gr to 158gr depending on the alloy.
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Last edited by Rangefinder; August 16, 2011 at 09:27 AM.
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Old August 16, 2011, 10:13 AM   #5
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... I use a finger-rub of LLA on the dry patch...
What is, "LLA"?
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Old August 16, 2011, 10:26 AM   #6
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Sorry--LLA is "Lee Liquid Alox"
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Old August 16, 2011, 10:15 PM   #7
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Methinks Salvadore's .32 project has a new lease on life.
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Old August 17, 2011, 02:34 AM   #8
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319261?

No way Tex, I tried paper patching years ago...Way too labor intensive for someone as lazy as me. About like sizing the front of a bullet one size and the rest another. I'm thinkin of havin V. Smith or someone like him make me a mold that tapers like the jacketed bullets or have the barrel reamed to take cast bullets.
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Old August 17, 2011, 09:28 AM   #9
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Salvedore>> 319247

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Old August 17, 2011, 09:44 PM   #10
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Nice RF, if I could put on a GC, it would be perfect for what I need.
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Old August 17, 2011, 09:52 PM   #11
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Nice RF, if I could put on a GC, it would be perfect for what I need.
That would be a pretty minor mod--taking the mold down to the first groove wouldn't lighten it much. Then you're set for a GC. The alternative is a custom--and those aren't as outrageous as one might think. I'll pull up a couple custom makers I know of.

Edit---This place ought to peak your interests...

http://www.mountainmolds.com/

Design it how you like it.
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Old August 18, 2011, 02:32 AM   #12
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Thanks RF, will finalize my design as soon as I measure how much of a front band I can get away with. You're a prince.
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Old August 18, 2011, 09:19 AM   #13
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Sorry--LLA is "Lee Liquid Alox"
Ahhh. Years ago, there was renewed interest in paper patching. However, the process involved using a lubricant on the paper that was no longer available. Unlike those no longer available, Lee Liquid Alox will undoubtedly be available for those who want to give paper patching a try.
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Old August 18, 2011, 10:49 AM   #14
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There are a bunch of different things used for PP lube. Lithium grease or regular automotive wax (turtle wax) to name a couple. But when I was rolling bullets one day the easiest thing within reach was a bottle of LLA, so figured "what the heck--it works on naked lead, it should do well on a patch..." It sure did--well enough that it's my standard PP lube now.
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Old August 19, 2011, 08:18 AM   #15
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I was remembering an article (I think it was in the American Rifleman), years ago about paper patching. They promoted the article as a way to follow to produce good results. The problem was that they used a Teflon spray that had been pulled from the market because of patent violations, and the good results they had obtained could not be duplicated as per the article. Inasmuch as the article implied that the spray Teflon was vital to good accuracy, and that lube was no longer available at press-time, the article was pretty much pointless. Nevertheless, it is good to know that other lubes have shown to be promising.
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Old August 19, 2011, 03:44 PM   #16
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Ok.... time for an ignorant question.

I've known about paper patching for quite some time, but I always thought it was primarily to promote a good seal between bullet and rifling.

But.... if you are casting a bullet the correct diameter, then squeezing it down enough to take a paper patch, then lubing it... isn't that adding a couple of extra steps and a paper patch to a bullet that was ready to use as is?

I need more explanation, I guess....
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Old August 19, 2011, 10:30 PM   #17
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IIRC a paper patch boolit mould is generally not the same as a conventional boolit mould. Fascinating bit of boolit history. Rooster Jacket lube is marketed as a PP adhesive lube as well as a boolit lube. Old black powder cartridge rifles often used pp boolits, as you may know. PP boolits is a fascinating topic.
Tons of good info over on castboolits.gunloads.com
One thread on BP, another on other types of powders.
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Old August 20, 2011, 12:10 AM   #18
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Yup--cast boolits is my other addiction... I spend a LOT of time there--I think I have a plaque somewhere in the mens room behind stall #3...

PP molds generally are smooth sided with no lube grooves what-so ever. Fun bit of history indeed about all that. But I've found conventional grooves are a non-issue. One of the versions I heard about how PP'ing came about was something to the effect of Frontier-related. It goes that after years out in the west in isolated country, when a rifle was shot out enough to start leading, key-holing, and losing any amount of accuracy it was figured out that the easiest way to make it shoot straight again was to use a bullet wrapped with a layer or two of bible paper to help it grab the riflings again--much easier than trying to lap out a mould in those days. Then they figured out it worked so well that they could punch up the powder charge besides---and what do ya know---it became a common practice. Is there any truth to the story? Couldn't tell ya. What I CAN tell you is that it works wonders for punching up the load on a cast boolit to take it from sweet to WOW!

hornetguy: Paper patching is a bit more than you're grabbing. It creates a literal form of the early jacketed bullet. The paper acts as a barrier between lead and lands to not only seal, but allow the bullet to be fired at much higher pressures than straight lead would otherwise be capable of. If it helps, starting load on a PP bullet is usually the same as the starting load on a modern jacketed bullet. Furthermore, you really don't have to do much or any alloying. For lead loads, I have to be a bit picky about my antimony and tin content for higher pressures, and then don't get expansion at the higher end. With PP'ing, I can use dead-soft, fire at high pressure, get a bullet that flattens to the size of a quarter, and not spend an hour scrubbing out the bore. I'm driving a cast lead bullet PP'd at the same load and pressures as I would a jacketed soft-point. I'd never even dream of trying that with a normal cast-lead bullet. It would strip out so bad my bore would look like a smooth-bore with all the lead left behind and I couldn't hit the broad-side of a barn if I was standing inside it.
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Last edited by Rangefinder; August 20, 2011 at 12:24 AM.
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Old August 26, 2011, 08:14 PM   #19
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paper patching and bore size?

Is there a rule of thumb as to the final pp diameter of the bullet in relation to actual bore diameter?
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Old August 26, 2011, 10:23 PM   #20
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Is there a rule of thumb as to the final pp diameter of the bullet in relation to actual bore diameter?
Just like shooting lead, you'll want to slug your bore and get an actual measurement. Generally, the lead bullet in a paper patch is just at or just over the land measurement and the patch is sized to about .001-.002 over the groove measurement.
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