lead for copper?

Crankgrinder · August 9, 2011, 06:54 PM

is it alright to use a lead bullet instead of a copper jacketed one of similar weight in the same load, powder, primer, case and all?

engineermike · August 9, 2011, 06:56 PM

It sure is...

dunerjeff · August 9, 2011, 06:58 PM

to load lead bullets you have to reduce powder a bit, otherwise you use everything the same as with copper jacket bullets.

Ksmoker · August 9, 2011, 07:03 PM

If you are shooting a semi-auto & you slow them down a little, take a few & try them out to make sure your gun cycles OK. I shoot quite a bit of lead in my Glock & always do that.

Wag · August 9, 2011, 07:32 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't go max load right away if at all.

--Wag--

Crankgrinder · August 9, 2011, 08:32 PM

thanx folks. Dont want to be just "pretty sure" about something and do it anyway. Better to ask

Ideal Tool · August 9, 2011, 08:59 PM

"better to ask"...Better yet is looking up this information in a good reloading manual.

kealil · August 9, 2011, 10:58 PM

Ideal Tool: "better to ask"...Better yet is looking up this information in a good reloading manual.

++1+

Crankgrinder · August 10, 2011, 08:44 PM

yes we know it is best to read the manual. However, there are different manuals that state different load specs as far as powder, pressure and so forth, and some seem to contradict others probably because different guns were used to collect the data and i do not have a manual that talks about substituting a lead bullet for a copper one.

Jim243 · August 10, 2011, 09:45 PM

Is this for pistol or rifle? If pistol, keep your load under 1,200 fps or you will lead up your barrel too much. Also depends on hardness of your bullets. And a leaded barrel is hell to clean. Also lead bullets are shot with lighter loads than copper, because they provide for less friction in the barrel than copper.

Jim

overkill0084 · August 10, 2011, 09:58 PM

What does your book say?
Lead bullets and jacketed bullets are close but not equal where powder charges are concerned.
Is there overlap? Yes.
Are all the charges identical? No.
There may be such a thing as too much loading data, but you will have filled a good sized room with books before you reach that point.
Consider purchasing Lyman's 49th edition or the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

maillemaker · August 10, 2011, 11:13 PM

I think you really need to consult a loading manual.

My understanding is that lead bullets are only good up to certain velocities, which can be extended somewhat by using a gas check.

So this would mean that depending on velocity, you may not be able to simply substitute lead bullets for jacketed bullets with all else being equal.

The safest bet is to fine a recent loading handbook and start at the lowest recommended charge and work your way up.

Steve

Crankgrinder · August 11, 2011, 06:22 PM

i would like to buy the lyman pistol & revolver book. it looks like a good one to have. The loads i am thinking of substituting are a 9 mm 125 gr jacketed bullet which calls for start grain of 8.2 blue dot powder for which i may use a 124 gr lead bullet instead. not .357 or anything like that which i use harder bullets for anyway. The .38 special data i have already lists loads for blue dot and power pistol powder for the type and weight of bullets i intend to use so i wont need to change anything there. These loads are coming from the lee book.

SurplusShooter · August 11, 2011, 06:50 PM

You will have to use a smaller charge of faster burning powder but everything else is the same.

Edward429451 · August 11, 2011, 07:26 PM

The short answer is no. The reason for that is that it is a different bullet and data for a more specifically similar bullet than a jacketed one is needed. It is true that is may be possible to extrapolate a start charge using this method, but one would certainly have to have a modicum of experiance in reloading and have a healthy amount of common sense at the same time.

We live in the age of the lazy man and everyone likes the shortcuts. Therein lies the danger. If you become too complacent and neglect some associated details then you could easily blow your gun up. Be careful, or better yet, buy the manual.

TXGunNut · August 11, 2011, 07:35 PM

The answer to this question and dozens more that you haven't thought to ask are in any good loading manual.
As Ed said the short answer is no. I have cast boolit loads and jacketed bullet loads and they are often quite different, at least I treat them that way.

oneounceload · August 11, 2011, 08:26 PM

the simple answer is RTFM

Why are you asking anonymous people on the errornet, as opposed to verifying with published data??

Do you want to earn the Darwin Award?

USE PUBLISHED DATA!..........

Crankgrinder · August 11, 2011, 09:33 PM

asking as opposed to? did it ever cross your mind maybe i already have read several manuals but thought id ask if someone had done this as i have no doubt they have? is there a darwin award for leading a barrel and having to clean it?

TXGunNut · August 11, 2011, 09:40 PM

did it ever cross your mind maybe i already have read several manuals...Crank

Honestly? No.

**Unclenick** · August 11, 2011, 09:48 PM

Using a lead bullet with the same charge as a jacketed bullet may be unsafe, particularly in a revolver. That's because the softer lead bullet can be upset by the pressure to fill the forcing cone, making it pretty fat and harder to start into the rifling. I believe this is the reason Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton both reported getting higher pressure from lead bullet loads when they were running maximum loads.

With light loads, the opposite is often true because the lead offers less resistance to being pushed into the rifling when its not being too grossly distorted, so pressure doesn't build as high doing it.

Stick_man · August 11, 2011, 11:21 PM

There have been many great points brought up so far, the best one is definitely to consult published data. However, in a revolver, you are pretty safe shooting lead at the same velocity as jacketed, but the powder charges will be different. It has been said that anything over 1200 fps in a revolver (without a gas check) will cause severe leading. I beg to differ on that. I have seen severe leading occur at 900 fps. I have also seen it occur at 1500 fps. The key is FIT even moreso than bullet hardness. You can take near pure lead (and without gas check) up to 1100 or 1200 fps without any leading if the bullet is properly sized for YOUR gun. You can also take an extremely hard cast bullet and get leading at those same velocities if fit is not good. With a properly fit, gas checked, soft cast bullet, you can achieve 1600 fps (maybe higher) without any discernable leading. They make great hunting bullets because they are soft enough to expand yet strong enough to get to the vitals without going to pieces.

Getting back to the OP, I would not recommend using the same powder charges for both jacketed and cast bullets.

dwhite · August 12, 2011, 06:12 PM

A little off topic but BlueDot with lead bullets is bad Juju. Won't damage anything but you're not going to run high enough pressure to burn clean.

I've never gotten good performance with lead bullets with BlueDot. Always seemed to lead the barrel pretty heavily.

All the Best,
D. White

farmerboy · August 12, 2011, 06:25 PM

Some say yes others say no but say lead I'n Glock pistols????

Crankgrinder · August 12, 2011, 06:55 PM

bad juju...haha havent heard that in a while. and unclenick always pops up with good stuff. im glad to hear of someone elses experience with bluedot. maybe ill read the manuals again tonight and maybe try a different powder. as for the bullet swap i come to conclusion it may not be a good idea so far. i may select a powder for velocity/pressure/etc and try with a couple rounds and check everything a few times in the future. For now i think ill find a proper load for cast bullets and get that powder to start with.

Crankgrinder · August 12, 2011, 06:59 PM

....and i do not own any glocks. Always head how great they were, used by cops and military and indestructible and filled with sand and shooting underwater and all that, but buying a gun for me is always a bit like finding a woman... and the glock does not make my heart beat faster. My favorites so far have been rugergp100 and sp101 both stainless and a beretta 9 that feels so good to shoot.

August 9, 2011, 06:54 PM	#1
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	lead for copper? is it alright to use a lead bullet instead of a copper jacketed one of similar weight in the same load, powder, primer, case and all?

August 9, 2011, 07:03 PM	#4
Ksmoker Member Join Date: December 6, 2009 Location: NE Kansas Posts: 74	JMO If you are shooting a semi-auto & you slow them down a little, take a few & try them out to make sure your gun cycles OK. I shoot quite a bit of lead in my Glock & always do that.

August 9, 2011, 07:32 PM	#5
Wag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 989	Yeah, I wouldn't go max load right away if at all. --Wag-- __________________ "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

August 11, 2011, 07:26 PM	#15
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	The short answer is no. The reason for that is that it is a different bullet and data for a more specifically similar bullet than a jacketed one is needed. It is true that is may be possible to extrapolate a start charge using this method, but one would certainly have to have a modicum of experiance in reloading and have a healthy amount of common sense at the same time. We live in the age of the lazy man and everyone likes the shortcuts. Therein lies the danger. If you become too complacent and neglect some associated details then you could easily blow your gun up. Be careful, or better yet, buy the manual. Last edited by Edward429451; August 11, 2011 at 07:52 PM.

August 11, 2011, 09:48 PM	#20
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,125	Using a lead bullet with the same charge as a jacketed bullet may be unsafe, particularly in a revolver. That's because the softer lead bullet can be upset by the pressure to fill the forcing cone, making it pretty fat and harder to start into the rifling. I believe this is the reason Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton both reported getting higher pressure from lead bullet loads when they were running maximum loads. With light loads, the opposite is often true because the lead offers less resistance to being pushed into the rifling when its not being too grossly distorted, so pressure doesn't build as high doing it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 9, 2011, 06:56 PM	#2
engineermike Junior member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Oklahaoma City Posts: 538	It sure is...

August 9, 2011, 06:58 PM	#3
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	to load lead bullets you have to reduce powder a bit, otherwise you use everything the same as with copper jacket bullets.

August 9, 2011, 08:32 PM	#6
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	thanx folks. Dont want to be just "pretty sure" about something and do it anyway. Better to ask

August 9, 2011, 08:59 PM	#7
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	"better to ask"...Better yet is looking up this information in a good reloading manual.

August 9, 2011, 10:58 PM	#8
kealil Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Posts: 270	Ideal Tool: "better to ask"...Better yet is looking up this information in a good reloading manual. ++1+

August 10, 2011, 08:44 PM	#9
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	yes we know it is best to read the manual. However, there are different manuals that state different load specs as far as powder, pressure and so forth, and some seem to contradict others probably because different guns were used to collect the data and i do not have a manual that talks about substituting a lead bullet for a copper one.

August 10, 2011, 09:45 PM	#10
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Is this for pistol or rifle? If pistol, keep your load under 1,200 fps or you will lead up your barrel too much. Also depends on hardness of your bullets. And a leaded barrel is hell to clean. Also lead bullets are shot with lighter loads than copper, because they provide for less friction in the barrel than copper. Jim

August 10, 2011, 09:58 PM	#11
overkill0084 Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2010 Location: Northern, UT Posts: 1,162	What does your book say? Lead bullets and jacketed bullets are close but not equal where powder charges are concerned. Is there overlap? Yes. Are all the charges identical? No. There may be such a thing as too much loading data, but you will have filled a good sized room with books before you reach that point. Consider purchasing Lyman's 49th edition or the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.

August 10, 2011, 11:13 PM	#12
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I think you really need to consult a loading manual. My understanding is that lead bullets are only good up to certain velocities, which can be extended somewhat by using a gas check. So this would mean that depending on velocity, you may not be able to simply substitute lead bullets for jacketed bullets with all else being equal. The safest bet is to fine a recent loading handbook and start at the lowest recommended charge and work your way up. Steve

August 11, 2011, 06:22 PM	#13
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	i would like to buy the lyman pistol & revolver book. it looks like a good one to have. The loads i am thinking of substituting are a 9 mm 125 gr jacketed bullet which calls for start grain of 8.2 blue dot powder for which i may use a 124 gr lead bullet instead. not .357 or anything like that which i use harder bullets for anyway. The .38 special data i have already lists loads for blue dot and power pistol powder for the type and weight of bullets i intend to use so i wont need to change anything there. These loads are coming from the lee book.

August 11, 2011, 06:50 PM	#14
SurplusShooter Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2011 Location: Upstate,New york Posts: 308	You will have to use a smaller charge of faster burning powder but everything else is the same.

August 11, 2011, 07:35 PM	#16
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	The answer to this question and dozens more that you haven't thought to ask are in any good loading manual. As Ed said the short answer is no. I have cast boolit loads and jacketed bullet loads and they are often quite different, at least I treat them that way.

August 11, 2011, 08:26 PM	#17
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	the simple answer is RTFM Why are you asking anonymous people on the errornet, as opposed to verifying with published data?? Do you want to earn the Darwin Award? USE PUBLISHED DATA!..........

August 11, 2011, 09:33 PM	#18
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	asking as opposed to? did it ever cross your mind maybe i already have read several manuals but thought id ask if someone had done this as i have no doubt they have? is there a darwin award for leading a barrel and having to clean it?

August 11, 2011, 09:40 PM	#19
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	did it ever cross your mind maybe i already have read several manuals...Crank Honestly? No.

August 11, 2011, 11:21 PM	#21
Stick_man Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 241	There have been many great points brought up so far, the best one is definitely to consult published data. However, in a revolver, you are pretty safe shooting lead at the same velocity as jacketed, but the powder charges will be different. It has been said that anything over 1200 fps in a revolver (without a gas check) will cause severe leading. I beg to differ on that. I have seen severe leading occur at 900 fps. I have also seen it occur at 1500 fps. The key is FIT even moreso than bullet hardness. You can take near pure lead (and without gas check) up to 1100 or 1200 fps without any leading if the bullet is properly sized for YOUR gun. You can also take an extremely hard cast bullet and get leading at those same velocities if fit is not good. With a properly fit, gas checked, soft cast bullet, you can achieve 1600 fps (maybe higher) without any discernable leading. They make great hunting bullets because they are soft enough to expand yet strong enough to get to the vitals without going to pieces. Getting back to the OP, I would not recommend using the same powder charges for both jacketed and cast bullets.

August 12, 2011, 06:12 PM	#22
dwhite Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2007 Location: Wake County, N. Carolina Posts: 379	A little off topic but BlueDot with lead bullets is bad Juju. Won't damage anything but you're not going to run high enough pressure to burn clean. I've never gotten good performance with lead bullets with BlueDot. Always seemed to lead the barrel pretty heavily. All the Best, D. White

August 12, 2011, 06:25 PM	#23
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	Some say yes others say no but say lead I'n Glock pistols????

August 12, 2011, 06:55 PM	#24
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	bad juju...haha havent heard that in a while. and unclenick always pops up with good stuff. im glad to hear of someone elses experience with bluedot. maybe ill read the manuals again tonight and maybe try a different powder. as for the bullet swap i come to conclusion it may not be a good idea so far. i may select a powder for velocity/pressure/etc and try with a couple rounds and check everything a few times in the future. For now i think ill find a proper load for cast bullets and get that powder to start with.

August 12, 2011, 06:59 PM	#25
Crankgrinder Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 917	....and i do not own any glocks. Always head how great they were, used by cops and military and indestructible and filled with sand and shooting underwater and all that, but buying a gun for me is always a bit like finding a woman... and the glock does not make my heart beat faster. My favorites so far have been rugergp100 and sp101 both stainless and a beretta 9 that feels so good to shoot.