ATF Project Gunrunner

[jimpeel]

Originally Posted by Baba Louie

Could not the affected States Attorneys General (AZ, TX and FL) join together to bring this to DOJs front door via some "legal instrument"? ala 1st Amendment right to petition governmental redress of grievance?

Could a state send Marshals with warrants to arrest a federal official in DC and extradite them to that state??

[jimpeel]

Originally Posted by csmsss

Impeachment is NOT a criminal proceeding. It is only a means of booting people from elective or appointed office and carries no further sanction than that. Further, it requires not just an impeachment vote in the House but a vote to convict in a Senate controlled by the WH's own party. It's a nonstarter and won't dissuade this administration in the slightest. The fact remains that there is absolutely no prosecutorial impediment to the WH and DOJ doing exactly what they want to do, laws be damned. There is no credible penalty they need worry about - and they know it, and are operating under that implicit understanding.

But once they are thrown out of office they are no longer protected by their station under sovereign immunity statutes. They could then be arrested and tried for the offenses they have committed.

[BGutzman]

Interpol

Interpol has virtually limitless power and no oversight by our government due to Executive order from this administration, gee I would fee bad if it came back to haunt them concerning this Gunrunner mess.

[csmsss]

But once they are thrown out of office they are no longer protected by their station under sovereign immunity statutes. They could then be arrested and tried for the offenses they have committed.

Yes, but you're forgetting that POTUS has the ironclad authority to grant absolute pardons to anyone he chooses, for any reason he chooses.

[csmsss]

Since this was an international crime, couldn't Interpol be pulled in? Interesting premise if it could work.

An interesting question. However, while this certainly appears to be violations of both U.S. and Mexican laws, it's far from clear to me that international law was broken. Mind you, I'm no attorney, much less an attorney versed in international law, but best I can tell no international laws (such as they are) or treaties appear to have been violated.

Moreover, isn't Interpol primarily involved when the subject of an investigation is not found within the jurisdiction in which the crime occurred? That wouldn't seem to be in play here.

[alan]

From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette of 12 July, by-lined The Washington Post, article headlined "Gun-control measure monitors border state rifle sales". The text of the article can be read on line at www.post-gazette.com


The first paragraph reads, "The Obama administration implemented its most controversial gun measure to date Monday, ordering dealers in four South-western states to report multiple sales of semi-automatic rifles to the federal firearms bureau".

One wonders as to whether this "federal firearms bureau" might possibly be those wonderful folks down there, in some corner of DOJ, the BATFE? Having seen this, one wonders as to what might be next, possibly some even more interesting executive orders?

Strikes me that the following needs to take place, and it needs to take place now rather than later. The offices of congress members and U.S. Senators need to disappear under piles of emails protesting Obama's anti gun stunt. The phone wires need to melt under the overload caused by phone calls from constituents, angry constituents. By the way, re phone contact with "elected things", the toll free number for Capitol Switchboard is 1-866-220-0044, as memory serves.

Letters To The Editor at newspapers might well be worth while too. If Obama et al get away with this stunt, who or what might stop additional transgressions?

[GoOfY-FoOt]

alan, did the story really have that many typos in it, or were you just typing too fast?

[jimpeel]

Originally Posted by csmsss

An interesting question. However, while this certainly appears to be violations of both U.S. and Mexican laws, it's far from clear to me that international law was broken.

Supplying weapons to rebel/criminal factions inside of a foreign, sovereign nation is an act of war. That clearly violates international law.

[csmsss]

Supplying weapons to rebel/criminal factions inside of a foreign, sovereign nation is an act of war. That clearly violates international law.

Of course, the WH and its proxies in DOJ and BATF would argue that they themselves did no such thing, that they themselves were (wink, wink, nod, nod) trying to shut those avenues of supply down.

[alan]

BGutzman Quote wrote::
Interpol

Interpol has virtually limitless power and no oversight by our government due to Executive order from this administration, gee I would fee bad if it came back to haunt them concerning this Gunrunner mess.

-------------------------

I will take your word re comment in above passage, but re Interpol, has that organization shown itself friendly toward the concept of the private ownership of arms, here I refer to modern arms, not antiques.

[Uncle Buck]

It seems more and more papers and news outlets are carrying the story (As shown through the links posted). Maybe it will continue to grow and the administration will be forced to act.

I believe right now they think they can still do damage control and hide this from the American and Mexican people.

[JustThisGuy]

Seems like Obama's got some 'splainin to do.

"2-year-old video shows a high Justice official saying "the president has directed us," including the attorney general, to speed up Project Gunrunner and the offshoot that got a border agent killed."

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...For-Obama-.htm

This story just gets curiouser and curiouser. Now we have a DOJ official stating that directions came from Holder and Obama. Subpoena time maybe?

[HarrySchell]

Obama has the combination of self-esteem and lack of real skills that make this scenario so believable. He is unaware of so much, but always assumes he is the smartest guy in the room, it appears. Holder would go along and hope it worked, I suspect. The prize is too delicious, and would vindicate their statements and Caleron's that violence in Mexico is a US gun law problem.

The fatal conceit for schemes like this is people who think no problem cannot be dealt with with the right combination of smart people and laws and planning and promotion. In their own minds they cannot "jump a bridge too far".

And they rarely get hurt when they do. Someone else does the bleeding.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnal...For-Obama-.htm

This story just gets curiouser and curiouser. Now we have a DOJ official stating that directions came from Holder and Obama. Subpoena time maybe?

The author of that piece is confusing Project Gunrunner with Fast and Furious. "Fast and Furious" is the program where guns were walked to Mexico by Phoenix ATF. It was one of 4,500 programs funded under the aegis of Project Gunrunner, which has been running since 2006. So knowing about and referencing Project Gunrunner isn't the same as knowing about "Fast and Furious" - though the big question now is "What were those aggressive changes to Project Gunrunner and did they contribute to "Fast and Furious?"

Right now we know "Fast and Furious" went wrong. We also have some credible allegations against "Castaway" out of the Tampa ATF, and based on the statement's of Carter's Country attorney and the Washington Post's December 15th story, it looks like Houston ATF may have let some guns walk as well. However, the only program with hard evidence against it at the moment is "Fast and Furious."

[Dead]

Fox is reporting this on the front page of their website: ATF Florida Gun Probe Earns Congressional Scrutiny in Wake of 'Fast and Furious'

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1S8BBBkhD
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...t-and-furious/

Wonder if it has anything to do with this?
Emails Show White House Targeting Fox News Despite Denial

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1S8BNUwia

[Nico Testosteros]

I have no comment on the possible program in FL but Faux "News" is the propaganda arm of the extremely right wing Republican party. Given their complete lack of any attempt to be fair to Democrats and the current Administration and it's no wonder the White House isn't playing footsy with Faux "News". Not Nixon type tricks, mind you.

[BGutzman]

I have no comment on the possible program in FL but Faux "News" is the propaganda arm of the extremely right wing Republican party. Given their complete lack of any attempt to be fair to Democrats and the current Administration and it's no wonder the White House isn't playing footsy with Faux "News". Not Nixon type tricks, mind you.

Im not playing the political end, but facts are facts no matter who puts them out...

[Edward429451]

You guys don't get it. No one will be held responsible. The higher up they are, the more likely there will never be a word said of it. Remember Janet Reno accepting responsibility for the 81 murders in Waco? She never got in trouble.

There are no checks and balances anymore. There's no USA anymore. Which corrupt Congresscritter should I write a letter to?

[KyJim]

From the Fox News article, I'm not so sure Operation Castaway is another Fast and Furious. It does merit some scrutiny, however.

I did find one particular paragraph a bit puzzling:

The lengthy court document states that the ATF noticed Crumpler's numerous purchases in a national firearms database -- it turned out he was later selling them at gun shows. According to the plea agreement, the ATF had an undercover agent buy from Crumpler and later observed the suspect at several gun shows in late 2009, selling to numerous buyers without a license.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...#ixzz1S8XuGaPd

So, it appears Crumpler was an unlicensed dealer selling guns at gun shows. What national database would they have that would track the number of guns he was buying? I was under the impression the record of background checks were not kept. The registration forms themselves are kept only by the local dealer. So, what's up with this?

[alloy]

This article says he was shipping weapons to Honduras etc, on behalf of the ATF and others. At least that's Mr Crumpler's version.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-ne...cru-ar-243657/

Operation Castaway began in the summer of 2009 and included the ATF, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, sheriff's offices in Orange, Osceola and Brevard counties and the Miami-Dade Police Department. As a result of the investigation, Hugh Crumpler III, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, acknowledged that he illegally sold about 1,000 guns, shipping the bulk of them to Honduras and other countries in Central and South America.

[KyJim]

The TBO article partially answers one of my questions, "Operation Castaway began after the ATF's National Tracing Center Multiple Sales Database revealed that Crumpler purchased 529 handguns in 62 transactions from federally licensed firearms dealers in Florida." I just never imagined anyone trying to skirt the FFL laws would create a record of sales by buying multiple handguns per day. But, it appears Mr. Crumpler was double stupid.

The TBO article does appear to contradict itself when it talks about Crumpler shipping the guns overseas but then says, "In several instances where Crumpler did sell guns to individuals from Honduras, including those who were not in the country legally, agents intercepted the individuals and seized the weapons, according to the documents." It appears to be some sloppy writing.

[alloy]

Yes the article seems to have several sides to the same story.

But, not to be deterred by facts...Maloney, Cummings, McCarthy(comittee members) will apparently introduce new legislation today via press conference.
The "Stop Gun Trafficking and Strengthen Law Enforcement Act," is designed to "keep high powered firearms out of the hands of dangerous criminals, including Mexican drug cartels"

http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogsp...eed-ahead.html

[ATW525]

I just never imagined anyone trying to skirt the FFL laws would create a record of sales by buying multiple handguns per day. But, it appears Mr. Crumpler was double stupid.

If you want to buy handguns in bulk, the multiple handgun reporting can be hard to avoid. You'd be limited to one handgun per transaction and can't purchase from the same place twice in a five day period. 529 handguns would take a long time to purchase.

[C0untZer0]

Here we go again - there will be a huge rush to purchase "high powered weapons" before the possible ban.

Ugh...

I wonder if the Browning High-Power will land on that list just because of it's name?

[2damnold4this]

What evidence do we have that Fast & Furious was an incompetent attempt to catch bad guys and what evidence do we have that it was an incompetent attempt to introduce new gun control restrictions? Was it one or the other? Was it both? I'm not sure what to think at this point.