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View Poll Results: Your IDEAL shot size for Home defense.
000 Buck 5 4.42%
00 Buck 60 53.10%
0 Buck 0 0%
#1 Buck 29 25.66%
#2 Buck 1 0.88%
Other... Please elaborate. 18 15.93%
Voters: 113. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 18, 2011, 09:27 AM   #76
youngunz4life
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notice poll:

00 buck easily in lead on final stretch heading for home already 2nd half of 30range(call it advertising I guess). closest 2nd # 1 buck barely in the 20 range. lots of good points, and also there are much more right answers than wrong answers with this thread. 00 works for me, but it might not for some others depending on their circumstances or preferences
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Old June 20, 2011, 02:05 AM   #77
45long
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Best home defense load is not Buckshot. At close range (6-10 ft) just about any birdshot load is going to act like a glazer saftey slug on steriods, punching one gaping hole in the middle and excerting all energy inside the intruder. I have see 2 deer accidently killed with #6s (long story). When you are in your house and shooting 00 buck you are basically shooting the equivilent of nine 357 magnums in your house or apartment if using a 2-3/4" shell. Not good for anyone on the other side of the wall. Easy experiment: place sections of sheet rock 4" apart and shoot at them and see how many walls it goes through before it stops.
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Old June 20, 2011, 02:14 AM   #78
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I voted 00 and keep it handy. I've also got #4 buck, and wouldn't hesitate to use it as well.
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Old June 20, 2011, 02:19 AM   #79
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lots of good points but the bottom line is the poll is pointing to 00 buck
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Old June 20, 2011, 02:30 AM   #80
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Welcome to The Firing Line!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 45long
Easy experiment: place sections of sheet rock 4" apart and shoot at them and see how many walls it goes through before it stops.
An easier way would just be to read the testing report from The Box O' Truth.
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Old June 20, 2011, 02:40 AM   #81
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sport45

thank you for the article
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Old June 20, 2011, 04:25 PM   #82
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Sport45... good article---A picture is worth a 1000 words --- wished they'd done the birdshot version. Also there are variables like: thickness of the sheetrock for example: in standard home it's usually 1/2 to 5/8 thick . in a commercial building it's up to 3/4, in a trailer or doublewide 3/8 or less with less bracing. cool article---
thanks
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Old June 20, 2011, 05:07 PM   #83
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Thanks for welcoming aboard--been reading your threads for years--though i'd just start injecting some of my own..

Oh BTW--I have to disagree with the birdshot portion of the article--it being hear say. Like I said I had a friend who had killed 2 deer eating up his garden---called the game warden up and said to shoot them if they were distroying property. He did--he thought he'd loaded the gun with 00buck that he usually kept in it for self-defense but it still had #6 turkey loads in it from spring gobbler season. Dropped em both. When he told me I didn't believe him(even laughed) , until I helped him clean and quarter them. One was a good size doe. BTW this was a good 6 yards from his house. I don't know what the guy in the article got shot with, could have been a light 1100fps 1oz #6 game/target load. Being a reloader I know how much difference a couple 100fps makes on a light projectile. Just more food for thought.
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Old June 20, 2011, 06:27 PM   #84
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Quote:
Oh BTW--I have to disagree with the birdshot portion of the article--it being hear say. Like I said I had a friend who had killed 2 deer eating up his garden---called the game warden up and said to shoot them if they were distroying property. He did--he thought he'd loaded the gun with 00buck that he usually kept in it for self-defense but it still had #6 turkey loads in it ....
I do not think that word means what you think it means. A hearsay statement usually begins with a phrase something like, "Someone else told me ...."

The Box O Truth results are corroborated by evidence (presented in pictorial form).

Now, if you personally witnessed your friend shooting the deer, then that would not be hearsay.

I have personally seen several dogs shot with bird shot - only to yelp and run away. I've personally seen bird shot knock feathers off of a pheasant - only to watch the pheasant fly away.
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Old June 20, 2011, 06:40 PM   #85
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Same goes for gun stories

a fairy tale starts out: "once upon a time", a fisherman's tale starts out: "this ain't no bulls&*$." -CPT Phil(RIP) "After the Catch"(show following "Deadliest Catch")

the deer story is the one not corroborated...it would be nice to see those results though & he probably already conducted tests (maybe not since he said it's for birds). I personally would never use it, but others seem to think its just fine...
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Old June 20, 2011, 07:32 PM   #86
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"When you are in your house and shooting 00 buck you are basically shooting the equivilent of nine 357 magnums in your house or apartment if using a 2-3/4" shell."

Just an important correction, without attitude, in that...

The 158 gr. (0.36 ozs.) 357 Mag at 1,485 fps is very powerful. A 55 gr. (0.125 ozs.) 00 Buckshot pellet at 1,325 fps is comparatively weak. Nine of them make a difference but, and this is ironic 45Long, it is more like firing nine .32 Long Colt blackpowder cartridges from 1875.

A 3" 000 Buck Mag is closer to firing 10 .380 ACP + P.

Last edited by Gehrhard; June 20, 2011 at 07:41 PM.
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Old June 20, 2011, 07:36 PM   #87
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Quote:
......... When you are in your house and shooting 00 buck you are basically shooting the equivilent of nine 357 magnums in your house or apartment if using a 2-3/4" shell
No, I don't think so.

Each 00 pellet weights 55 grs. and travels @ 1150fps in low recoil tactical buck, or about 1350 fps in standard loads.

That doesn't begin to approach the power of, say, a 125gr. bullet @ around 1400 fps--and more in longer bbl. lengths.

Individual 00 buck pellets have considerably less penetrating power than any pistol one might keep in the home for SD.

For those wishing to have a home defensive weapon that that limits it's effectiveness to 10' and may not penetrate the couch Bubba is using for cover even within that range, then birdshot is the choice for you.

I can live with your choice. Hope you can.
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Old June 21, 2011, 01:59 AM   #88
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Maybe 9 357 magnums is an over statement , but go to the box 'o truth link and see how many 5/8 thick pieces of sheetrock they went through. As far as hearsay on the 2 deer. I saw that with my own eyes. Picked out a bunch of the shot myself. So to me it's gospel and i know there will be skeptics out there. I have also peppered a few animals with birdshot (at a distance) and watched them run. As I said the kind of load makes a big difference.

hmm--maybe a little homemade ballistics gel could tell a story here? I love ballistics and reloading. Wonder what a 1290fps 7/8oz game load would do versus a 1250 1-1/2oz load. I'm starting to suspect it was the weight and the larger concetration of shot that made the difference.
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Old June 21, 2011, 02:11 AM   #89
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One other thing I worked @ a packing house when I was 20. Every now and then a bull would come into the knocking shute that didn't get phased by that knocking hammer with the retractible bolt. Guess what they used then?
An old H&R single shot with ,you guessed it ,low brass bird shot. Of course it was shot from only 2-3 feet away but it dropped em like a ton of bricks. Also scared the hell out everyone in the kill room because they never warned anyone first.
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Old June 21, 2011, 09:51 AM   #90
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Quote:
As far as hearsay on the 2 deer. I saw that with my own eyes.
Now, that's different from your initial post of the story. If you had said, "I watched my friend ..." that would have been a conclusive eye-witness statement.

Given that you've seen two deer killed by buckshot and I've personally shot a number of pheasants, watched feathers fly, and then watched the dang birds fly away ... I'd say the verdict on birdshot as a large mammal/man killer is still a long ways out.
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Old June 21, 2011, 04:04 PM   #91
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Birdshot is deadly at close range. When it spreads out it loses steam quickly. At HD ranges, and with a reasonable choke, a hi brass 6 will do some damage. At HD ranges it'll still be a slug.
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Old June 21, 2011, 04:45 PM   #92
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Quote:
When you are in your house and shooting 00 buck you are basically shooting the equivilent of nine 357 magnums in your house or apartment if using a 2-3/4" shell. Not good for anyone on the other side of the wall.
Firing any firearm toward a wall with people on the other side is a bad idea. Changing from 00 buck to #6's doesn't absolve the responsibility of "knowing your target and what lies beyond it".

I use 00 buck, because I expect it'll stop the badguy sooner and more decisively than smaller shot. I do this because I expect if I'm forced to shoot the badguy, I'm not the only one in the situation armed and I want his trigger finger to stop moving ASAP. I know where my family is in the house and which walls not to shoot toward. He doesn't and if he did, probably wouldn't care.

Ergo......buckshot for me.

As always YMMV.....
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Old June 21, 2011, 07:53 PM   #93
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Quote:
An old H&R single shot with ,you guessed it ,low brass bird shot. Of course it was shot from only 2-3 feet away but it dropped em like a ton of bricks. Also scared the hell out everyone in the kill room because they never warned anyone first
What's the point? Everyone knows that birdshot is lethal before it has a chance to spread out, especially if it hasn't left the shot cup yet. Similar to shooting a single projectile, though penetration would still be considerably less than a slug----but apparantly enough for cows.
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Old June 21, 2011, 08:22 PM   #94
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Quote:
---but apparently enough for cows.
That must have really made some undo mess in the packing house.

What I've seen used most on cows were 22short,22lr and an occasional 22mag.
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Old June 22, 2011, 12:06 AM   #95
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Quote:
That must have really made some undo mess in the packing house.

What I've seen used most on cows were 22short,22lr and an occasional 22mag.
Actually, no mess. All shot was inside head.These were large bulls usually. I asked why they used the shotgun , they said because thay had one get shot with a 22 (don't know if it was a mag or not) ,and it just ticked him off and he came over the knocking shute crushed a guy's foot. Anyway that's what they used and still use today as far as I know.
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Old June 22, 2011, 08:03 AM   #96
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At HD ranges, and with a reasonable choke, a hi brass 6 will do some damage. At HD ranges it'll still be a slug.
My house has an open floor plan. It's conceivable that I could be attempting shots of more than 15 yards. At 15 yards, bird shot out of an 18.5" barrel with no choke is not a slug. As I've said a couple times, I've hit pheasants at similar distances, watched their feathers fly and then watched them wing their way toward the horizon.

If your in-home distances are less than 12 feet (like those in the Box O Truth) tests, you might successfully defend yourself with bird shot. Then again ... you might not. Ultimately, you get to make your choice and I get to make mine.
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Old June 22, 2011, 09:25 AM   #97
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All in all if you hit them with anything out of a shotgun it's very doubtful that he'll be going room to room from that point. Especially if peppered in the face.

I shoot enough skeet to feel comfident enough to know his chances of getting more than one round fired at him will be very high.
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Old June 22, 2011, 09:51 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 45long
At close range (6-10 ft) just about any birdshot load is going to act like a glazer saftey slug on steriods, punching one gaping hole in the middle and excerting all energy inside the intruder... When you are in your house and shooting 00 buck you are basically shooting the equivilent of nine 357 magnums in your house or apartment if using a 2-3/4" shell. Not good for anyone on the other side of the wall. Easy experiment: place sections of sheet rock 4" apart and shoot at them and see how many walls it goes through before it stops.
You know, I have seen adult men punch their hand through sheet rock on several occasions. I've yet to see an adult male punch his fist through someone's chest. My take away from that is that 5/8" of powdered gypsum backed by paper is probably nowhere near as tough as the average human beings and that something that is stopped by such a barrier is likely not suitable for human beings.

So my general rule is not to defend myself from an immediate threat of death or serious injury with something that won't penetrate sheetrock.

Quote:
All in all if you hit them with anything out of a shotgun it's very doubtful that he'll be going room to room from that point. Especially if peppered in the face.
I'd agree that is a likely outcome in most cases; but it does happen. Here is a previous post where I discuss people who survived being shot in the head at household distances with a shotgun loaded with birdshot. In one case, a man was shot execution style in the back of the head with a .410. None of the shot penetrated his skull and he survived by wrestling the gun away from his attacker. In another case, the attacker took a load of high-brass #6 in the face from 6' (part of the load was blocked by a refrigerator) blinding him in one eye. He then killed the person he was attacking with a single shot of 12ga buckshot and drove two hours home where he was convinced to seek medical treatment.

I can definitely appreciate the desire to limit the danger to innocent bystanders; but I think going with a load that doesn't even penetrate sheet rock is taking that to ridiculous levels. Ultimately, the use of deadly force is to protect you and your family from an immediate threat of death or serious injury. It seems to me that failing to stop that threat quickly and with as few shots as possible is more likely to result in injury to myself or others than a stray shot - after all, the intruder is unlikely to have the same concern about overpenetration.
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Old June 22, 2011, 09:52 AM   #99
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All in all if you hit them with anything out of a shotgun it's very doubtful that he'll be going room to room from that point. Especially if peppered in the face.

I shoot enough skeet to feel comfident enough to know his chances of getting more than one round fired at him will be very high.
If there in the open and they hold still enough for you to hit them in the face, remember that at the short HD range your pattern is small. Oh and hopefully he doesn't subscribe to the OO buck theory and lets you have a second shot.
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Old June 22, 2011, 10:22 AM   #100
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yay! Another buckshot -vs- birshot thread!

I agree 100% with Bartholomew Roberts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nnobby45
What's the point? Everyone knows that birdshot is lethal before it has a chance to spread out, especially if it hasn't left the shot cup yet. Similar to shooting a single projectile, though penetration would still be considerably less than a slug----but apparantly enough for cows
Correction. Potentially lethal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hardworker
Birdshot is deadly at close range. When it spreads out it loses steam quickly. At HD ranges, and with a reasonable choke, a hi brass 6 will do some damage. At HD ranges it'll still be a slug.
Nonsense. I'm not a fan of blanket statements. There's something called sectional density. Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Further, birdshot pellets does not act like a single projectile similar to a slug. That assumption is incorrect. Birdshot is potentially deadly or lethal at close range. Don't kid yourselves about its effectiveness.


You choose ammunition based on a worst-case scenario, not the best. You prepare for a worst-case scenario, not the best. That's why you should choose a load that will put the maximum advantage in your corner. If you knew that there is a person in a room behind the bad guy and you're only separated by drywall, would you really risk taking a shot and rely solely on the birdshot to not hurt or kill someone in case of a miss?


With birdshot you are wise to keep in mind that your gunfire has the potential to not produce an effective wound. Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect. Use buckshot and make the first shot count. It will also keep the amount of collateral damages to a minimum.
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