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Old June 2, 2011, 10:14 PM   #26
SRH78
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Unless I am mistaken, the Stephens is basically a pre-accutrigger Savage. For the difference in price, you could easily upgrade the trigger. I have a Timney in my pre-accutrigger 110 and love it.
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Old June 2, 2011, 10:22 PM   #27
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The Stevens 200 is as similar to a Savage Axis as a Camaro is to the Firebird.
No it's not. It's not at all similar. The Stevens 200 is the same exact rifle as the older Savage 110 without the accu trigger. It's a much better option than the Savage Edge/Axis.

Another option is Walmart sells the Savage Model 10 and 110's for $387-397 with a cheap scope. This is the model with the accu trigger. If they have one in the caliber you want, this is the best choice out there imo.
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Old June 2, 2011, 10:37 PM   #28
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The Stevens 200 is the same exact rifle as the older Savage 110 without the accu trigger.
I think you sold one for them, then. I tried the accu-clanker on my nephew's super-duper 1000 yard .308 (forget the model but was a single shot, had a laminated stock and about a yard of heavy SS barrel) and detested it.

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Old June 2, 2011, 11:55 PM   #29
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The only downside to a faster twist like 1:9, 1:8, or 1:7 is that they can spin the bullet so fast that thin jacketed varmint bullets can fly apart

I don't buy that, I shoot 52 grn V-max in my 1-7 White Oak Service Rifle, Never had one come apart. Never seen one come apart. Never heard of it except on the internet.
You should try reading the Hornady Manual, 7th edition. Page 193 (and I believe on other cartridge pages):

At velocities exceeding 3400 fps, bullets sometimes come apart before they reach the target. Also note the thin jacket of SX bullets limits them to velocities of 3400fps.

Then under the Bullet Description section regarding the SX style varmint bullet, page 40:

...These bullets have such thin copper jackets that they cannot be driven much above 3500fps velocities without flying apart.

As I mention in my previous post, some bullets can fly apart with a fast twist rate and high velocities. Not all or even most, but some of the thin jacket ones can, at least according to one bullet manufacturer.


ETA: The part of my post conveniently left out of the other posters' quote of me, which is relevant to the statement:
With lighter bullets you are combining faster velocities (and spinning) with very thin jacket "explosive" bullets.
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Old June 2, 2011, 11:58 PM   #30
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I've got the Savage Axis in .223, the combo that came with a Bushnell 3-9x40 scope, and shot it for the first time today with cheap Russian ammo, shot right at 1 moa. And that's with me pulling one. Only ran 40 rds through it today, but the trigger definitely got better around 30 rds in, and I expect it to get even better as I shot more through it, lol.

The Axis fits right in the budget, comes with a decent scope, and will definitely get you started. The Stevens 200 would also be a great option. But for an entry level, budget bolt, the Axis is a good one.
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Old June 3, 2011, 03:50 AM   #31
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Just in case the Hornady reference does not convince the doubters, I knew I had read this in more than one place. Google found a reference to the Speer manual, so I found this in my Speer Reloading Manual #13, page 137, the intro to the .223 cartridge data:

"Most .22 caliber centerfire rifle bullets are of light construction for varmint hunting. When fired at 3,200 fps in a 1-in-7 twist rifle, the bullet is rotating at over 300,000 rpm when it leaves the muzzle. This rotation is more than most varmint bullets can withstand so they are literally ripped apart as they leave the barrel.

If you have a rifle with the faster 1-in-7 twist, you should limit the muzzle velocity of sporting type bullets to 2,800 fps."


It goes on to recommend other bullet styles and weights they offer iin .224" that are suitable for faster velocities (heavier jackets). Of course this has to be taken into context of the types of bullets they make, and does not apply to all varmint bullets by all manufacturers.

I have zero experience with thin jacket varmint bullets and am only passing on advice I received from two bullet manufacturers. I suppose they may be faking the data and just read it on the interWebz themselves, but I suspect they have more insight into how their bullets perform than that.
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Old June 3, 2011, 08:28 AM   #32
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Dinosaur vote here. Get a bolt action .243, Savage, Remington, Winchester, it really doesn't matter much as long as it feels right in your hands. Still lighter than the Mosin, and better for larger game than the .223 unless you aren't going after anything bigger than paper targets and gophers. Then you can move up in the same gun model to a .308 when you want to go after more serious game, anything from deer to moose and it would be a gun you are already familiar with and comfortable using.
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Old June 3, 2011, 10:02 AM   #33
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The .223 Wylde chamber will safely shoot both .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO with excellent accuracy.
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Old June 3, 2011, 10:34 AM   #34
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I don't buy that, I shoot 52 grn V-max in my 1-7 White Oak Service Rifle, Never had one come apart. Never seen one come apart. Never heard of it except on the internet.
The only case I've heard about of this ("bullets going poof") happening was with a 220 Swift and "Laser Beam" level handloads .....

What velocity are you launching these at? I'll bet it ain't Swift velocities.

I suppose it could be done with other cartridges, but you'd really have to be pushing a .223 hard to get to 3400+ f/sec...... Gun beating, case wrecking hard.
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Old June 3, 2011, 12:12 PM   #35
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You can't shoot a varmint bullet fast enough in 223 to make it come apart.

I'd get a new Savage as suggested. Rem. has some nice new rifles at reasonable prices.

A good used bolt gun can be had, but I would look at the barrel carefully for rounded worn riflings. Especially if it's a heavy barreled varmint or target gun.
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Old June 3, 2011, 01:09 PM   #36
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You can't shoot a varmint bullet fast enough in 223 to make it come apart.
Obviously Speer Bullets disagrees since they printed their cautionary note in the .223 cartridge section. Reloading manuals such as Lee and Hodgdon have several SAAMI limt loads in .223 40 gr bullet exceeding 3,500 fps which is beyond the recommended velocities of some Hornady and Speer bullets, perhaps others as well. The 36 gr bullet loads can reach 3,800 fps with standard SAAMI pressure limits.
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Old June 3, 2011, 05:51 PM   #37
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I use 75 grain Hornady A-Max in my Savage Mod 11 223, It is like shooting a laser to the target. (.130 MOA 100 yrds) Be sure to get one with the Accutrigger.

Jim

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Old June 3, 2011, 06:02 PM   #38
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Eagle, it's not a matter of muzzle velocity alone. It is bullet rpm which is a function of muzzle velocity & twist rate.

Jimbob, all my handloads for my 223 w/ 1:12 twist push 40 grain hornady vmax well above 3400 fps while not exceeding any manufacturers recommendations. Those same 40's do a great job on coyotes. Pin-hole entrance, no exit wound, and dead coyotes if I do my part.
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Old June 3, 2011, 07:44 PM   #39
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I haven't had rifle bullets come apart on me but I had some creative handloads for a handgun that did. I loaded some 230 grain hollow points intended for 45 ACP into 45 Colt brass with a very healthy powder charge behind them. My intention was to use them in my 454 to shoot varmints with and they worked great at close range. The varmints did flips and went poof but I couldn't hit anything at longer distances and after a few shots I figured out why. You could see where the bullet fragments had spread out hitting the ground in a pattern.
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Old June 3, 2011, 08:14 PM   #40
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YAV (Yet Another Vote) for the .223. +1 on the Tikka, too.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/80560

Once you get the rifle sorted out, there's optics to explore. In my limited experience, getting optics sorted out is a wee bit more complicated than the rifle.

Good luck.
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Old June 3, 2011, 09:22 PM   #41
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I was doing some searching today, and came across some people saying that the 7.62x39 round was comparable to the .223 in usage, obviously not dimensions. Is this true, and if so would anyone suggest it over the .223? I'd probably get an SKS, not an AK.
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Old June 3, 2011, 09:31 PM   #42
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Props on the quote from JSM...

anyways


No, 7.62x39 is not like 223 at all other than both being centerfire calibers used in military assault rifles.

SKS rifles are fun if you can get one less than $250 in good condition. I suggest the Yugoslavian versions. AK-47 variants are fun too but you want to spend at least $500 and get a decent built one like Arsenal (best price/performance) or something like an Interarms from AtlanticArms. Century WASR ones are alright for $400. They'll work longer than you will most the time and if you buy from Atlantic you have good service if you get a bad one.


Check out Wikipedia for differences and histories of the cartridges you're interetsed in and look at www.BrassFetcher.com for performance of them in gel with different bullet types.


7.62x39, .223 Remington, and 5.45x39 (AK rounds for soviets post ~1974) are great cheap rounds and work well.
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Old June 4, 2011, 07:40 AM   #43
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the 7.62x39 round was comparable to the .223 in usage
Not if you are looking for any kind of accuracy. Notice you don't see many (if any) 7.62X39's in rifle matches. The 223/5.56 dominates the High Power matches in Service Rifle and do pretty dern good in F-Class matches.

Don't see any 7.62X39s winning anything. I've never seen one at a 1000 yard match, but I've seen (and shoot) 223s in Service Rifle at 1000 yards.

I put on High Power or CMP Clinics every year. Every now and then some one show up with the7.62X39..........ONCE.......they have something else when they come to the next clinic.
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Old June 4, 2011, 09:08 AM   #44
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Conserning an AR, they are not assult rifles. They are modern semi auto rifles that have the same apperance of a military firearm. As to the 223, its a perfect round for your intended purposes. Another thing you will achieve is good practice. The 223 is supera accurate, low recoiling and dosent have super harsh muzzle blast. You will not have any second thoughts about choosing the 223. Just remmember, you must post pics!
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Old June 4, 2011, 01:00 PM   #45
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@brian
I know, I was just making fun of the public fear of those evil black rifles

I'll post pics once I get it, but that may be awhile. I'm in no hurry so I'm waiting for the perfect opportunity. Also, I don't trick out my guns, so it won't be very impressive

Edit: While I'm thinking about it, would a 4-12x scope be enough? Or do I need something like 4-16x or even 6-24x?
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Old June 4, 2011, 04:53 PM   #46
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At 300 yards you'd be a-ok with open sights! The 3x9x's are a pretty good fit for most shooters espcially out to 300 yards, as is the 3.5-10x. You'll want to keep the magnification somewhat low for the closer shooting. Remember, your focusing on the crosshairs, not the target.

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Old June 4, 2011, 06:46 PM   #47
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How much magnification is mostly personal preference. Iron sights have their place but at 300 yards, a good scope will definitely shrink your groups. For general use a 3-9 is a good choice but at longer distances, more magnification is nice. You can never see to well. Basically, it becomes a matter of choosing higher magnification for better precision at long range or less magnification for faster target aquisition. For target shooting, quick target aquisition is usually a non issue. For hunting, it is an issue. Personally, I wouldn't want less than a 3-9 for the intended use you describe and would prefer more as budget allows. Imo, a 4-16 AO would be great.
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Old June 4, 2011, 09:30 PM   #48
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Edit: While I'm thinking about it, would a 4-12x scope be enough? Or do I need something like 4-16x or even 6-24x?

I run a 10-40 x 50 on mine,but i bench shoot.This would be a poor choice for a hunting scope. Although you can back it off to 10 power. I agree with other post,The bigger you can make your bullseye the tighter your groups will be.
My bullseye at 300 yards is a pencil diamater.
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Old June 5, 2011, 12:05 AM   #49
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TIKKA, TC Venture might be worth a look. 223 is a great round good luck
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