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Old May 4, 2011, 09:16 PM   #51
MashieNiblick
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i believe prudence and pragmatism are key in this discussion

- one must first be able to shoot and master one's firearm at a range
- then they should be able to take arms 'gainst nonhuman animals, mortally to be followed by a good, sober meal shared with family and friends
- then be prepared to use his/her firearm on an intruder into their home or property upon an unwarranted intrusion
- then and only then should they carry in public away from home in cause of self defence

- ideally only proffessionals, and ideally only after filling first of above three req's, should be called to offer public defense (i.e. LEO's)

- ideally only proffessionals, and ideally only after filling first of above three req's, should be called to take arms to other countries in the cause of Liberty

- the taking of one's own specie's life is completely unnatural and an almost nonexistent occurance in the animal kingdom.

- what are we anyway?

- unfortunately, it is often far too romantisized in modern theatre and media

- again, fulfillment of the first three may, may prepare one to take another's life

- key is that one has played such entire scenarios through one's mind- from initiation of situation, to pull, to trigger, to recipient's aftermath, to LE arriving and questioning post occurence, to family members and community of recipient arriving, to local media attention, to court perhaps, to personal shock, aftershocks, and waves of such, after incident, to possible PTSD, etc ad infinitum

- as a side note, i wouldn't doubt if the recent Pakistani Compound takedown team has already, medically, forgotten completely about the incident

Be careful out there, Gentlemen.
Regards,
- MN

Last edited by MashieNiblick; May 5, 2011 at 02:05 PM.
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Old May 4, 2011, 10:11 PM   #52
lawnboy
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Quote:
the taking of one's own specie's life is completely unnatural and an almost nonexistent occurance in the animal kingdom
So is written language and the use of tools. Yet here we are.
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Last edited by lawnboy; May 4, 2011 at 10:19 PM.
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Old May 4, 2011, 10:40 PM   #53
MashieNiblick
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written language to humans is akin to a coyote urinating in the dirt and brush for his breathren to read later

tools to humans are akin to deer and mooses rubbing antlers on birch to rid of old skin

coyotes eating coyotes. . . hmmm, don't think so. . . :barf:

deer eating deer- think mad cow disease

and we humans are like 75% herbivore- ImO there's a relation

Last edited by MashieNiblick; May 4, 2011 at 11:07 PM.
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:00 PM   #54
MashieNiblick
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to further the discussion

- there is no wrong in self protection and the protection or saving the lives of others
- there is wrong in one killing another of one's own species- again look to wild animals here
- unfortunately for us, with our overpopulation and misguided grouping and societal skills, the latter sometimes necessitates the former

- this is why our Armed Forces mandate strict adherance to ROE

- domestically, and rightly ImHO, LE and us are given more flexibility


- if ROE is not adhered on foreign soil, and it happens, be there a coverup or not- this is where severe long term disorders prevail


- one's breathren group fixating that point two above is good when obviously it is just a necessity for successful achievment of point one above- power in numbers- more power in truth. man. . .


- for us guys domestically, the same should be true with regards to our additional given flexibilities- karma, karma


- the GI's in Vietnam fought the toughest battle personally of all US wars, ImHO

- dropped in the middle of a freaking JUNGLE, i repeat- a JUNGLE, insurgents, communities, patrols, who's who's???, what's what's???, things that go creak, knock, thump, pop, pow, bang- in the day and night. years durations, rampant drug use, etc, etc. . .


anyway, just to further the discussion. . . .
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:00 PM   #55
lawnboy
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Written language, like that used to write about firearms, requires abstraction and introspection unavailable to a coyote.

You can see a coyote urinate in the dirt and another come along an hour later, smell it, and head in the opposite direction. You can infer from that that some kind of marking occurred. Introspection allows you to put yourself in the mind of another and speculate on what is going on there. Abstraction allows you to recognize communication when you see it. You can then use these human traits to outsmart the coyote (whose senses are all superior to yours) and draw him into range to shoot him.

You can show one of those two coyotes a copy of the 2nd Amendment and he can infer nothing from it. It does not help him realize that there is a good chance that you have a rifle.

If a buck loses to another buck in a contest over females he does not leave the scene and return with a better weapon. Like a rifle.

And coyotes are scavengers. They'll eat anything. Including other coyotes. So when you shoot that coyote you called you better hit him solid. If you wing him he'll limp away and that other coyote will eat him after he drops.
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:11 PM   #56
MashieNiblick
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i agree that a coyote of the canine variety would have a hell of a time graduating from Oxford or similar

, but think how well we'd do and how long we'd survive dropped in the middle of the wild without MRE's and water. . .

they don't introspectively understand our language- don't assume that we know much about theirs

they have a lot less free time too, so i understand why coyotes of the canine variety had no part in writing the god blessed US Constitution

Best Regards,
- MN
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:19 PM   #57
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:20 PM   #58
MashieNiblick
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lb,

i apologize if i sound like a smart@$$- i do not mean it.

much respect and best regards,
- MN
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:23 PM   #59
lawnboy
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I'm bored, its late and I friggin love verbal fencing. Or, given our virtual location, a verbal shootout.

No offense taken! G'Nite
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Old May 4, 2011, 11:45 PM   #60
MashieNiblick
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you like verbal fencing

i like corners, or getting out of them at least - some say by swinging from ceiling fans , so all's good

Good Night, indeed, Sir.
- MN
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Old May 5, 2011, 06:06 AM   #61
BigBob3006
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I was dispatched out of city to back up a Maricopa County Deputy.By the time I got there it was all over with. The Deputy tried to stop a speeding car and the perp didn't want to stop. This was a weekday morning. The area was semi-remote with some industrial sites. The Deputy got the man out of the car and that was when the perp started shooting. The Deputy put the man down for keeps. There were several civilian witnesses who were all eager to tell what a great job the Deputy had done up to that point. The Deputy was standing there when a loud whistle blew. The Deputy thought lunch time, pulled out his lunch and started to eat. What had happened was the Deputy who was a eight or nine year veteran went into shock. I sat him in my car along with a civilian to talk to him. Within a few minutes the civilian was out of the car telling everyone that the Deputy was in shock. So everything worked out for him. It ruined his self image of his career. Inside a month the Deputy had quit. That's why I always tell students that at some time they are going to sit in judgement of what took place. They are going to be the harshest judge of the shooting. At that time they had better have had a good reason for shooting.
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Old May 5, 2011, 11:33 AM   #62
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BigBob, as I recall, 70-80% of LEO's who kill in the LOD leave law enforcement within a year. I had already put in my papers, so I don't count.

There are also the reverse reactions - like the CA officer who killed one of a notorious set of gang member brothers. After the next qualification, he shot better than usual, holstered his gun, and said "Bring on the other XXXX brothers!" He was sent to psych.

In the end, we are all individuals. Some suffer PTSD, some don't. Some have many symptoms, some few. Age, years as an LEO, prior PTSD training, moral background, etc. are all factors, but the impact of each is unknown.

And no one has mentioned the religious feelings. The depth of religious feeling may also be a factor - the early editions of the bible says "thou shall not murder", not thou shall not kill. Early religious teaching included situations when killing was allowed.

But remember this: Look down on no one for his suffering is real - certainly to him/her. I did not suffer PTSD, but if there is a next time, I might.
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Old May 5, 2011, 03:14 PM   #63
markj
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I never shot anyone, but my nephew has. Marine soon to be out.

Quote:
He said there were support groups available immediately after returning from a patrol,,,
If there was any shooting on the patrol then your attendance was mandatory,,,
And it wasn't a chaplain but a trained psychologist leading the group.
He is in san diego going thru "Debriefing" he took over a large machine gun maybe a m50 or something like it, then aimed it on a convoy just blew his best friend up and killed his sgt. He told me that gun tore up everything he shot with it, guys in the vehicles were jellied, unrecognizable. He has bad dreams, is dealing with it. He isnt the same young man, not as brash, not so fast to speak up, more introspective.

He will be a dad soon, and on to be a teacher, the marine corp was his way to get college money.

Killing a person changed him, I for one dont wish that change be made to me if I can avoid it.
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