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Old April 18, 2011, 01:50 PM   #1
WookieRookie
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9mm accuracy issue

Hey guys, have a nagging problem. I'm working on a load for berrys 125 gr flat nose bullets in 9mm. I'm shooting out of a Springfield XD. I have previously worked up the same bullet in round nose to a very accurate round. Can't seem to figure this flat nose out. Right now I'm using 231, 4.3 gr, and am happy with that. Trying to find a good OAL. I've tried 1.055, 1.075. They cycle very well, but I can't get the groupings of the round nose. Anyone out there have success with a certain OAL? Thanks!
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Old April 19, 2011, 03:24 AM   #2
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I could be wrong, but it sounds like the bullet may be to small for the bore. It should be .356". Call Berrys and talk to them. They may send a few.357" to see if there is any improvement.
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Old April 19, 2011, 02:03 PM   #3
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Are you using the 125 grain or 124 grain bullets? I was thinking Berry’s lists 124 grain for 9mm, but they have 125 grain bullets for 357. Are your bullets for 9mm?

I recently was working up loads for 9mm Berry’s 124 grain HBFP, but I suspect the bullet profile differs from the 124 grain FP. I was testing Unique and Power Pistol at an OAL of 1.120 and got some good groups of 4 of 5 in a 1.5” circle at 50 feet using a rest and Springfield XDm pistol.
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Old April 19, 2011, 02:35 PM   #4
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I have found that some bullets are concave on the bottom and some flat. Depending on the crown of your barrel, your gun may like one type better than an other.

Just a thought.
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Old April 19, 2011, 03:51 PM   #5
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are flat nose and truncated cone the same?

I would try 1.1 OAL it works great for my truncated loads
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Old April 19, 2011, 04:24 PM   #6
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sorry, it's the 124 gr 9mm bullet. It has a flat base, flat nose. I have now tried 1.055, 1.060, and 1.075 OAL. Can't get near the accuracy of the 124 gr round nose. I can put 20 in a quarter sized hole at 25 feet. None venture outside the hole. Great group. With flat nose, I average about 9 in a quarter sized hole, with 11 floating off an inch or so, all directions. Tried with a hot and cold barrel. It wouldn't be a problem if I hadn't bought 1,000 of these things!
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Old April 19, 2011, 04:27 PM   #7
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Don't feel bad, I bought 500 of the HP Barrys and I can't get them to shoot decently out of either of my 9mms.

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Old April 19, 2011, 06:21 PM   #8
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Just measured diameter of 20 random bullets, all were a perfect .356.
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Old April 19, 2011, 08:14 PM   #9
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Welcome to the Voodoo of reloading where changing one single component can drive you nuts. In this case, the internal ballistics of your combination translates to poor accuracy no matter what OAL length you try. Just note that this bullet style and brand is no good in your particular weapon and move along. Simply changing to another manufacturers bullet of the same style could change your groups dramatically. If you have a bunch of these projectiles, relegate them to plinking, tin can, rapid fire, burning through the ammo loads. Sometimes you get the same kind of results with premium bullets or one type of primer in a particular weapon.

I learned my lesson with a M96 Swede. It shoots like a dream when you feed it something it likes. It patterns worse than a spreader choke shotgun when you feed it something it doesn't like; there isn't much middle ground either.
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Old April 19, 2011, 08:19 PM   #10
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Real wanting to try some precision delta fmj. Read some really good things. Hate to buy a thousand before checking them though.
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Old April 19, 2011, 09:07 PM   #11
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Wookie,
Try working your C.O.L. from 1.100 then 1.110 then 1.120 then 1.125 and 1.130, etc. I believe my 9mm runs from 1.130 and 1.135. The C.O.L should be somewhere between 1.100 and 1.169. The C.O.L could be less than 1.100 but looks like you have already tried that. I've owned two 9mm's s and as I said they both liked different C.O.L's, the Ruger liked 1.135 and the XDM likes 1.130. Now I am not going to get into the the old longer C.O.L and powder charge = pressures changes, at 4.3 grains of Win 231 you will be ok and your rounds will shoot ok. After you find the C.O.L for your gun you can go back and adjust your powder charge later, if you need too. Play around with your C.O.L and and I bet your groups will get better. I can't tell any difference between the Berry's Round, Flat, or hollow point bullets, they all shoot about the same.
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Old April 19, 2011, 09:35 PM   #12
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But at those lengths, is there enough bullet in the case? Haven't tried, so just curious. My RN OAL is 1.135, but the FN looks to have less straight wall on the bullet to seat.
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Old April 19, 2011, 09:42 PM   #13
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When I look on the Winchester cite it calls for a C.O.L. of 1.125 with powder loads of 3.9 to 4.4 using Win 231 with a 125 grain bullet. If you are wanting to keep the 1.075 C.O.L you might try going down on your powder load. Might start at 3.9 and see if that will help.
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Old April 19, 2011, 09:46 PM   #14
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The lowest charge that would cycle was 4.2. I need to measure the length of the FN. Significantly shorter than RN.
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Old April 19, 2011, 09:56 PM   #15
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Let me know what the overall length of the bullet comes out to be.
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Old April 19, 2011, 10:05 PM   #16
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FN length is .527
RN is .600

Pretty big difference. Tomorrow I'll try 1.100 and see if enough seats in the case.
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Old April 19, 2011, 10:13 PM   #17
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That would make the FN .073 shorter? What load data are you using?

Last edited by engineermike; April 19, 2011 at 10:21 PM.
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Old April 19, 2011, 10:24 PM   #18
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Believe it wa lymans. Began with 3.9 gr 231, worked up to 4.3 to cycle reliably. Got to 4.5 but saw slight flattening of primer, so I backed off. Recommended OAL was 1.070 for a 124 gr FN lead, so I tried going up/down from there.
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Old April 19, 2011, 11:00 PM   #19
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Well, I get a .5535 on a Berry's 124 grain hollow point and a .5527 on a Berry's 115 grain Round Nosed bullets using a micrometer. If I am reading my Lyman's info correctly I only find info on the 125 grain Hollow Point Jacketed with a C.O.L. of 1.075. I have no Flat Nosed bullets to measure, so I have asked Berry's what difference there is between the lengths of the two types of bullets. I would like to know as I am loading their bullets too, or as SHR970 says your gun might not like these bullets. So far all my guns like the Berry's bullets.
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Old April 19, 2011, 11:06 PM   #20
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Thats what struck me so strange. My XD loves the round nose. Most accurate bullet I've loaded so far. Was expecting similar results with the flat nose. Thanks for the help, it's much appreciated.
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Old April 29, 2011, 10:34 AM   #21
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EngineerMike,
Did you get an answer to your question from us?
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Old April 29, 2011, 12:03 PM   #22
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Jay,
No I have not yet received an answer to my question. But after thinking about it if it did not come through in my question, I am just wondering if all 115, 124, 180 grain hollow point, flat point, and round nose bullets are the same length respectively within tolerance. I would assume that if they are not then the loading instructions for powder weights would never be right. I am just curious as to why Wookie's Measurements were so far apart for the same grain bullet.
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Old April 29, 2011, 12:33 PM   #23
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Hate to bring in another variable but how about your crimp.
Taper or roll?
I prefer a firm taper crimp on 9mm using lead or jacketed. The one time I tried Berrys I found that the same crimp that I used on cast lead and jacketed deformed the plated bullets. Once I reduce the crimp I got better results.
One other thing, are you doing a separate seat/crimp? I had a similar problem using XTP bullets that were deforming trying to do both at the same time. As soon as I started seating then bring them back through a separate taper crimp die things got better.
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Old April 29, 2011, 03:12 PM   #24
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Great point on the crimp. The nature of the beast is that the plating is not as hard as a jacket, the plating is thinner and is not work hardened like a drawn and formed jacket. There is a mis-conception that the leas we swage is softer than in a jacket, but that is usually the opposite. We find that by adding 3% antimony and a percentage of tin create a better substrate for the copper to adhere to. Most jackets use close to pure lead because it is cheaper. Tin and antimony are both over $7.00 per pound where lead is being traded around $1.17 a pound. By using the same crimp pressure on a jacketed vs. a plated you will probably create a waistline, where the mouth is crimped in and the material is non-compressible and usually goes below the crimp. You can pull a seated and crimped bullet to see if the crimp has damaged the bullet. This is the number one cause of inaccuracy in our bullets. As far as the FP bullets, I find that the design (more like an XTP) lends itself to being seated in deeper than a RN. The ogive of the FP is compact and needs to be seated in deeper to give the proper jump distance to the lands and grooves (that is the prevailing theory).
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