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View Poll Results: Do LEO's have the proper training to handle a shootout when it happens?
Yes 17 34.69%
No 32 65.31%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 21, 2011, 12:31 PM   #51
WhiskeyTango
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So how can some, like the Mississippi State Patrol, get such phenomenal training, and others fall, way, way behind? I wonder what kind of budget Mississippi throws to the State Troopers? Here in Northglenn, CO, we have no budget, Denver is worse. And it shows in the caliber of LEO's that we see here. I know allot of you are saying that money can't fix it, but it certainly couldn't hurt either.
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Old April 21, 2011, 12:40 PM   #52
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You're assuming they all fall behind. I attended KCPD's in 1981 and it was fully as intense as the MI outfit described above. In those days, if the 'washout rate' was below a certain percent, they figured the training wasn't tough enough.

IIRC, we started with 26 and finished with 12 or 13.
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Old April 21, 2011, 05:42 PM   #53
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Tim makes some fine points, but I do have a question about MHP - how much sustainment training do they get? Is that on a par with what they get at the Academy?

For example, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center has great ranges and instructors. But after you leave, you may end up at the local sand pit, with a guy who is the firearms officer because he is not very good at anything, so they dump all the lesser jobs (car fleet manager, classified files clerk, etc.) on him or her.
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Old April 21, 2011, 07:35 PM   #54
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I'm not assuming anything, I'm just noticing a trend. Some officers are saying their departments training is top notch, others are saying it sucks. I'm wondering why that would be. It seems to me that all departments would strive to be the best. Without being a LEO myself I can only speculate that it has allot to do with the caliber of leadership(or lack thereof), the attitude of the individual officer, and the amount of funding the department has. If any one of those is not on track, I would think the whole department suffers. Thats why my Platoon Sergeant quickly got rid of any soldier that didn't want to be there. If I were a cop, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near an fellow officer that didn't have the drive to be the best. And if I were the brass, I sure as heck wouldn't tolerate any officer in my department with a "I have a badge, thats good enough" attitude. I met two Lakewood, CO Officers today at a Veterans job fair, and after talking to them for a while about a job opportunity, I brought up this discussion. They told me pretty much the same thing most of the TFL members have posted. They had to buy their own weapons, pay for their own training, and 80% of the department didn't even want to be there. I don't know about most people, but those 80% aren't the kind of LEO's I wan't "protecting and serving" anything.
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Old April 21, 2011, 09:39 PM   #55
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Training is regular and rigorous with MHP. Most officers will go on eventually to one of the special agencies (SWAT, A-Team, SOG, beaurea of investigations, etc.) an will receive more training there. It is a big, if not the biggest, focus. It isn't always about money. Sometimes it's about priorities or political support. Gov. Barbour is very supportive of the HP, and the HP chooses to emphasize training over material things like newer cars. The fleet is not shabby, mind you. It's pristine. But officers are pounded with the promise that heads will roll if they abuse the equipment and don't make it last. They want the money for training, training, and more training. The best man is preferable to the best office, car, or computer.
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Old April 23, 2011, 04:25 PM   #56
Terry A
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The guys who want to get extra training thru schools, classes or lots of practice off duty are only a small percentage of the officers I know. Most only shoot during yearly qualifications, at fixed paper targets, at the same distances in the same stance year after year. The also shoot in the same cadence each time, with ample time limits to adhere to.

Now, for the officers who join a SWAT or CERT team, the training is pretty intensive & goes into a lot more detail. We've had classes & joint training with military units, other police departments & in addition to lots & lots of shooting, you get more realistic scenarios such as in shoot houses or FATS training. We've had week long 40 hour courses that used simunitions along with our tactical gear. Different scenarios are run constantly thru the whole week. Flash-bangs, OC spray, rough handcuffing tecniques, timed mile & a half runs, agility & strength testing, proper weapon maintainance, etc, etc. And the actual tactical instruction is very in depth. There are some very sharp & qualified instructors who have a real passion for teaching the finer points needed to survive armed encounters. The officers who avail themselves to this type training benefit greatly and have a huge advantage over those officers who are content with their once a year qualifications.

One problem that many good officers face is having a Chief who is into what's called "Community Policing" or who is not themself aggressive by nature. Back in the day, our police chief would not allow us to wear black uniforms because he said they "looked too intimidating". I told him that that's a good thing but he said to get out of his office! The best Chief's are the ones who were actually working the streets & progressed upwards, rather then someone who was a professor of criminolgy somewhere and was appointed by politics to the position of "Chief". I had another Chief who was into guns & would approve all kinds of training. Getting extra ammo to practice with was always ok'ed. So a lot of what training the officer gets is dictated by that officer's Chief. The same Chief who wouldn't allow us to wear all black uniforms also put out an order that if there were a school shooting at one of the 4 schools we covered, we were forbidden to enter the school until at least 3 officers arrived. It took a while & a lot of "diplomacy" but we finally convinced him that order needed rescinded.

One more thing I'd like to add here. From what I've seen, the best trained officers who also really enjoy what they're doing don't get rattled like the average officer who shoots once a year & has not had the extra training. All the extra time & effort that's put into aquiring these skills builds a lot of confidence in those who have prepared themselves. They're less likely to panic & make mistakes. The more training the better the chances are of successfully resolving an incident. And the MOST successful way any incident can be resolved is with no deaths. Proper & intensive training will help prevent deaths on both sides of the officers weapon.
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Old April 23, 2011, 06:13 PM   #57
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Apparently, even the LEOs don't think so.

Because all I ever see them doing is handing out speeding tickets on the highway.

This is horse$#!+. Why don't communities just find a better way to
increase their revenues, and set their police to protecting and serving us,
instead of breaking our balls?

There's a few good reasons most people don't like cops.
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Old April 23, 2011, 07:20 PM   #58
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Hmmm, so you don't care if folks kill your family by speeding? Plus, a lot of really bad guys get arrested after a stop for speeding, illegal lane changes, etc. etc. Perhaps you never heard that speed kills?

You do understand that the best way to get out of a speeding ticket is DON'T SPEED?

And revenue is not the issue, public safety is.
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Old April 23, 2011, 07:36 PM   #59
Terry A
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Thanks for the good post Sleuth.
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Old April 23, 2011, 09:24 PM   #60
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Roger that Sleuth, Wolf we are not discussing whether or not LEO's handing out speeding tickets is harassing people, A good friend of mine was killed by a speeder/influenced driver. I've had several speeding tickets myself, the State Patrolman who gave me my speeding tickets was doing his job, and maybe if the speeder who killed my friend had his balls busted that day my friend would still be alive. If you want to complain about cops doing their jobs start your own thread.
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Old April 23, 2011, 09:33 PM   #61
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I wouldn't expect such a thread to last too long, though. Cop-bashing isn't looked upon kindly here. Lot of cop members, and probably most of the rest of us have cop friends or family.

FWIW, of the tickets I received over the years, I only was offended by one: I hadn't seen the school zone light flashing overhead, because I was behind a semi. I passed the semi; saw the two police officers with their radar guns, and thought nothing of it as I was at or under what I thought the speed limit was.

I explained this when I got pulled over, after the officer told me the speed limit was 15, not 35, due to the flashing school zone light (I also hadn't realized the school was on that block). The officer said, "We thought it was odd, since you were looking right at us." But then he wrote the ticket anyway.

I found that annoying, but technically I was speeding, even if it hadn't been my intention.

Now, the other tickets I've received, I had coming. And I was very pleased on the rare occasions that I received warnings (not that rare, in hindsight; 1/3 of the times I was stopped, I got warnings).

I suspect most people would have to admit the same - most tickets are justified, and the police are more likely to give a warning where a ticket could be given, than a ticket that's totally unjustified.

Sorry for the veer.
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Old April 23, 2011, 10:43 PM   #62
therewolf
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They really don't need much that much training at all, if all they're going to

do is fill in the blanks on a citation, and rudely mistreat people in an arrogant

manner. You yourself said this is all they have time for, and what they should be

doing.

Shouldn't take any training at all to act in the snotty, nasty way I've

repeatedly encountered.

Bashing? I don't think so. If the shoe fits, wear it, Leo.
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Old April 24, 2011, 10:19 AM   #63
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Show's over.

Closed. PM's sent.
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