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Old April 11, 2011, 09:44 AM   #1
Newton24b
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michigan laws on black powder handguns

this is a nice little reply i got in the mail today from the state of michigan. its real enjoyable.




There was a statutory change in May of 2004 which exempted black powder muzzleloading handguns from the purchase permit requirement. The only black powder pistols that require the permit are ones that can be modified to also chamber a modern cartridge. According to statutory definition, a black powder pistol is still classified as a firearm, and is subject to restrictions on transporting or carrying concealed without a concealed pistol license.

Federal law does not classify black powder muzzleloading handguns as firearms. Therefore, they are not subject to the restrictions on shipping over state lines to an individual's residence. As long as UPS or FedEx will accept them for shipping, there is no state or federal law that would prohibit it.



so because of you guys and those fun little cartridge conversion units from kirst and r&d, a colt walker still needs a permit to purchase. what fun.
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Old April 11, 2011, 10:30 AM   #2
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Well, I appreciate the sentiment, but it's not because of us guys. It's because of you guys and the interesting people that you elect to your legislature.
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Old April 11, 2011, 10:56 AM   #3
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Now I know there's another state with more wacko laws than Commyfornia. And Hardcase is right, they keep voting for the same legislators every year, the same guys who are anti gun and anti business.

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Old April 11, 2011, 01:27 PM   #4
4V50 Gary
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Sounds like Commiefornia. At one time, any bullet that could be used in a handgun had to be signed for. When the T/C Contender came out, Commiefornia decided that any caliber the Contender was chambered had to be included. Not surprisingly, crime did not go down because of the law.

BTW, I never vote for the same scallywag twice. (S)he stole enough money the first time. Often times, the person I vote for loses anyway.
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Old April 11, 2011, 08:09 PM   #5
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Scum scum scum

Watch, Study, Know, The people, we VOTE into office. They will have you in court for making out with your wife / Husband, if they want. They do anything they want. Once we let the dogs in the house, it's hard to get them out. Anyone that voted for the scum that's in office now. I don't feel the least bit sorry for you. Have a nice bite of crow, to go with that tar coffee.
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Old April 11, 2011, 10:15 PM   #6
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Newton - thanks for that update. My residence is in MI but I winter in AZ and I hadn't heard about this one. That's one nice thing out here in AZ . . . the gun laws are less restrictive and a lot of the politicians at least use some common sense about it . . . well, mostly. I'm in southern AZ . . . about 45 miles north of the border . . . you know . . . the giant sieve for illegals to make their way north so they can smuggle in drugs, two legged coyotes can take advantage of those illegals who try to get in, a giant desert where bandits roam to rip off the smugglers and they have special teams that go out just to stop them (wouldn't want a smuggler to get ripped off) . . . . so that those that do make it across illegally can be supported by all of us taxpayers footing the bill for free education, free medical care and even social security!? We, the taxpayers, foot the bill for billions to try and keep the border secure and then our national govt. won't enforce the immigration laws . . . let's face it . . . no matter what level most of the politicians are on . . state or federal . . . they forget who put them in office the day after they are sworn in. That's why I'm a big supporter for every politician serving two terms . . the first in office . . . the second in jail. God help us.
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Old April 11, 2011, 10:46 PM   #7
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I don't think that rule applies until the conversion has taken place. I buy all my BP revolvers from a VERY reputable dealer in West MI and never need a permit or even fill out the fed form. So there must be an exception in the law for replicas.
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Old April 12, 2011, 12:35 AM   #8
Mr.Guido
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Quote:
michigan laws on black powder handguns

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this is a nice little reply i got in the mail today from the state of michigan. its real enjoyable.




There was a statutory change in May of 2004 which exempted black powder muzzleloading handguns from the purchase permit requirement. The only black powder pistols that require the permit are ones that can be modified to also chamber a modern cartridge. According to statutory definition, a black powder pistol is still classified as a firearm, and is subject to restrictions on transporting or carrying concealed without a concealed pistol license.

Federal law does not classify black powder muzzleloading handguns as firearms. Therefore, they are not subject to the restrictions on shipping over state lines to an individual's residence. As long as UPS or FedEx will accept them for shipping, there is no state or federal law that would prohibit it.



so because of you guys and those fun little cartridge conversion units from kirst and r&d, a colt walker still needs a permit to purchase. what fun.

Relax Chicken Little, the sky isn't falling yet.

Whomever you got this from is either confusing State and Federal definitions for antique firearms, or is simply ignorant of the applicable MI statutes.

The following is the actual text of the law, not some secretary's convoluted interpretation.

MCL 750.231a

Quote:
(2) As used in this section:

(a) "Antique firearm" means either of the following:

(i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898.

(ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
I suggest you contact your source and request them to support their contention with reference to statute or binding court decisions. I suspect you will encounter some awkward back peddling.
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Old April 12, 2011, 02:03 AM   #9
Newton24b
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I emailed for clarification at 10 am this morning, and my contact responed almost instantly. I did not get online for 15 hours since. here is what my contact responded with.

"I need to reword my response: I should have said "The only black powder pistols that require the permit are ones that HAVE been converted to chamber a modern cartridge." instead of CAN be converted. I hope that clarifies this better."

And my contact is the one that the michigan state website provided when i emailed the michigan state police customer support email. The very helpful official turned out to be one of the highest ranked officials in the firearms division of the state police.
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Old April 12, 2011, 02:52 AM   #10
Newton24b
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contact returned reply to a follow up email i asked of what handguns were allowed. the statute is that "black powder handguns do NOT need a purchase permit unless it has been converted to use modern cartridges"

my contact is a manager in the michigat state police firearms division
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Old April 12, 2011, 07:05 AM   #11
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I'm glad your contact corrected his mistake. I was about to get on the phone for another rant with my friends in Lansing. Anyone can make a mistake, and it's good to see they recognized it and corrected it.
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Old April 12, 2011, 02:09 PM   #12
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Glad to hear it's straight for now. Just give it time. The fox is still in the hen house. As for the border thing. That should make every person take note when our trusted Law Persons sell war AKs, M16, what ever the heck they want to send to them, and arm our people with RUBBER BULLETS, and get them killed for trying to do there jobs. I say those people that sent those firearms down there, should be bought up on MURDER charges. OH I forgot ,they have a get out of jail free card. If you can't tell I'm mad as heck. I got to get out ah here, for I tell you what I really got in mind. OH you would never get to read it, they would take it off the form so fast, then band me. Set down, put on the song, "Simple Man", turn it up real loud. Take and let every word set in. NO I didn't hear it in church last Sunday. Might not be ah bad idea.
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Old April 12, 2011, 06:12 PM   #13
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Thanks for hashing that out and getting it clarified . . it's appreciated by us "Michiganders". I winter in AZ and am back in MI during the summer . . I hadn't heard of any changes but I don't read MI newspapers, etc. either. I just took a class this past Sunday out here which covered a lot of Arizona's statures . . and like anywhere else, they are changing every so often . . fortunately for the time being, they are more lenient . . but give it time. At any rate . . as said . . . mistakes can be made or just using a different word in a reply like that can change the interpretation . . . thanks for clearing it up and having the source clarify it. It's appreciated! And by the way, the one thing they stressed in the class I just took was that any statute, regardless of how it is written, can be interpreted differently by different people. It only becomes clarified when it is tested in court and we all know that if it comes to that, it's going to be how the judge interpretates it. If you ask three different lawyers for an opinion . . . you'll probably get three different answers. After all, we're working with human beings.
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Old September 29, 2015, 09:48 AM   #14
Kavorka
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Pietta Navy 1851 44 Cal Michigan Registration questio

I found this old post and wish to see if I understand .
I am new to BP firearms and wanted to get into the this aspect of the hobby.
I purchased a used Pietta 1851 Navy in 44 cal last weekend at the Novi Michigan Gun & Knife show.
The seller had a table (a small vendor).
I have a CPL and a C&R in Michigan
The seller stated to me that the sale did not require any paper work ;therefore a Michigan Pistol Record Form would not be required.
I did not get the sellers (vendor's) ID etc the show was closing in a few minutes and it was a rush.
This pistol does not have a modified cylinder so I assume I do not need to file a Michigan Pistol Sales form.
I do not intend on any modifications and will keep it as Pietta intended.
Do guys agree? Please respond
Thank you Dave
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Old September 30, 2015, 06:45 AM   #15
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Not knowing what I am talking about never impeded me from commenting but...

By reading the state's response in Newton's posts it appears that in Michigan your 1851 Navy is considered a firearm since it "can be modified to chamber a modern cartridge".

I am not from Michigan, never been in Michigan, but the response in the OP seems to be unambiguous at least about the Navy. It is ambiguous about other things but it certainly seems like any BP revolver for which a cartridge conversion is marketed is classified as a firearm.
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Last edited by Doc Hoy; September 30, 2015 at 06:53 AM.
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Old September 30, 2015, 06:57 AM   #16
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Post numbers nine and ten in this thread seem to answer the question.
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Old September 30, 2015, 07:40 AM   #17
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Yep...I should have read them.

Michigan also seems to have some funny rules on carrying in a car.
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Old October 1, 2015, 05:30 PM   #18
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Dave - Doc makes a very good point. I'd forgotten about this post and I see that I responded to it originally.

I'm also a MI resident with a MI CPL license plus a CCW in AZ where we winter. I think the "interpretation" of the law as shown in the original post - by whoever responded from the state . . is and can be interpreted two different ways. To the best of my knowledge, I can walk in to any gun shop in MI and purchase a C &
B revolver with no requirement of the Michigan Pistol Sales form required. I'm talking about a cap and ball in its original form requiring loose ball, powder and cap. HOWEVER . . if it is converted to cartridge and capable of chambering and firing a cartridge, then it does require a Michigan Pistol Sales Record the same as any cartridge handgun does.

And, a cap and ball revolver can be mail ordered and delivered to a Michigan address without any FFL work because the Feds do not consider a cap and ball a "firearm".

And on top of that, I'g guessing you could call the state as well as a number of LE agencies and get a different interpretation out of each of them. The OP's "response" states a date of May 2004 . . .i know for a fact that I have purchased C & B revolvers form LGS here in Michigan after that date - walked in, put my money down and walked out.

Michigan allows "open carry" and I'm sure that would apply to C & B revolvers as well. Conceal it and I'm sure you would fall under the CPL requirements. Personally, why anyone would want to carry a BP revolver "concealed" is beyond me for SD purposes. That desire sort of makes an alarm go off for me as it would usually indicate the individual does not want to carry a cartridge firearm for SD for a reason . . . most likely because they cannot get a CPL license due to a felony conviction, a PPO, history of domestic abuse, drugs, etc. - in which case they SHOULDN'T be allowed to own a firearm let alone carry one - and in Michigan with any of those convictions they cannot purchase, possess or have access to them.

An effort is being made to abolish the registration of handguns in Michigan - whether it will be successful or not remains to be seen. Personally, I don't have any real objections to it as it can work to your advantage if for some reason your handgun or handguns should be stolen. And, since it is no longer required that you go to the local LE agency to get a purchase permit and the FFL holder now fills the Pistol Record Form out . . . it's a lot easier and less running around. If you have the MI CPL license, it eliminates the criminal background check and all that is required after the purchase is to either drop off at your LE agency or mail in the State's copy of the form within the time limit.

Michigan isn't perfect but I wouldn't classify it as a "Kalifornia" either.

Doc . . every state has their own restrictions as far as transporting firearms. If I have a CPL license, I can do just that . . carry concealed whether on foot or in a car. If I don't, then the restrictions dictate non access to the firearm, it must be unloaded, in a case, etc. You have the same as in any state . . not of Federal property, etc.

In AZ, they did away with the requirement for a CCW license BU
t, a person can still take the class and obtain one. It's foolish not to as it provides you with what the laws of the state are . . . and many of them vary depending on if you are licensed or non-licensed. And, in my opinion, if they would go back to requiring a CCW license, it would help weed out those who have no business carrying. IMHO
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Old October 1, 2015, 06:07 PM   #19
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Quote:
Personally, why anyone would want to carry a BP revolver "concealed" is beyond me for SD purposes. That desire sort of makes an alarm go off for me as it would usually indicate the individual does not want to carry a cartridge firearm for SD for a reason . . . most likely because they cannot get a CPL license due to a felony conviction, a PPO, history of domestic abuse, drugs, etc. - in which case they SHOULDN'T be allowed to own a firearm let alone carry one - and in Michigan with any of those convictions they cannot purchase, possess or have access to them.


In Idaho , one can purchase C&B , muzzleloader , bows , cross bows …. No back ground, just walk in and walk out . However the state law defines firearm to mean and includes any weapon from which a shot, projectile, or other object may be discharged by force of combustion, explosive, gas, and/or mechanical means, whether operable or inoperable.

So while a given item may not be recognized by the fed as a firearm , does not mean the state holds the same meaning . So here while a C&B revolver may not require a back ground check , if you are a felon “depending on felony “ and you purchase that item and get caught , they can hit you with illegally owning a firearm
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