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Old April 6, 2011, 06:22 AM   #1
garryc
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Some thoughts on lethal force

Let me put up this article, good for a lively conversation. At what point does someone know that they have to do whatever it takes to survive. Is denial so strong in some that they don't realize that they actually are being killed, which makes them delay action until it's too late.

http://www.corrections.com/tracy_barnhart/?p=639

(a little look into my world too)
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Old April 6, 2011, 06:25 AM   #2
BikerRN
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You posted this on another thread and I replied to it. When I went back to check it you had deleted your post.

Thanks.
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Old April 6, 2011, 06:43 AM   #3
garryc
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goofed up, sorry
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Old April 6, 2011, 06:47 AM   #4
Rifleman 173
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Years ago a couple of different police agencies, rightly or wrongly, came to the conclusion that officers are sometimes killed because the officers fail to keep watching the suspects around them. In some cases the officers became complacent and let suspects get behind them. Once behind the officers, the suspects then launched their attacks. In some other cases, officers did not keep a watch on the movements of the suspects' hands. In these cases the suspects waited until the officers' eyes were looking away from them, pulled a weapon and then attacked the officers.

One case that drew a lot of attention happened in Texas when a constable was jumped by 3 men who were transporting a large quantity of marajuana in the trunk of their car. At one point, when the constable was not looking in the direction of his attacker, that was when the constable got hit from the side and taken down to the ground and killed by his attackers.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/166-cons...rd-lunsford-sr.

Ron Adams, author of Street Survival, tells everybody he teaches that they need to always watch the hands of any suspects or people that they're investigating at all times.
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Old April 6, 2011, 06:55 AM   #5
BikerRN
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Quote:
Correctional Officer Brent W. Lumley

Corrections Officer Lumley was killed when he was stabbed in the neck with a home made knife. Officer Lumley was attacked by six inmates and stabbed while other inmates kept his partner’s attention diverted. Two suspects were convicted in his murder.
That one hits too close to home, as I am familiar with this case.

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Old April 6, 2011, 06:50 PM   #6
Manco
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That's very much in line with my views on seeing the trouble coming--being able to perceive the often subtle maneuvering that takes place as a prelude to a murderous attack, and then sometimes having to escalate the situation yourself in order to prevent it from getting entirely out of control (a last resort to be sure, but not always avoidable). In my opinion, you can't always leave the initiative entirely to the bad guy, and you can't always bug out (especially if you're in law enforcement, of course).

An additional example that I didn't see listed is Deputy Kyle Dinkheller. The video of what happened to him is on YouTube at this location (warning: not visually graphic but the audio is rather disturbing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX5kwVc9IOk

While Deputy Dinkheller used lethal force (which sadly was ineffective) when he realized just how much danger he was in, it shows what can happen when an LEO hesitates too much in taking control of the situation. I expect them to do whatever they need to do in order to maintain control for their own safety, which is why people should always immediately comply (whether they actually did anything wrong or not--all will be sorted out later). In this case, obviously the highly troubled murderer should have been taken down and cuffed early on (using non-lethal means initially, of course), which in hindsight would have prevented this tragedy.
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Old April 6, 2011, 10:58 PM   #7
Glenn Dee
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I'm a retired Police Officer.

I began my career in 1973. At that time we were taught a similar style of combat revolver shooting as people are taught today. A two handed modified weaver for distance shooting, and a one handed quick front sight alignment method for close in situations. We practiced re-loads for every string of 6 fired. Then to combat reload whenever empty, or if we lost count. We were not however taught to fire until empty. My department is one of the very few that still allows officers to carry service revolvers. Although there are fewer, and fewer at every range cycle.

In the beginning the standard regulation round was a 158 gr lead semi wad-cutter .38 spl. loaded from box type carriers. As time passed we eventually upgraded to 158gr SWC +P, then to 158gr SWC +p NYCLADS re-loaded from speed loaders. Although most training was done with wad cutters, we always fired a minimum of 50 rounds of street ammo at the end qualification sequence. Although not the same difference as .357 vs .38spl... There is still a huge difference between .38 spl W/C ammo and .38spl +p ammo. Eventually all practice with W/C ammo was eliminated, and both practice, and qualification was done with street ammo.

IMO... No matter what the weapon pistol or revolver. Or the caliber .38 or .45 (and everything in between) it's the man or woman behind the gun that is the threat. There are some instances where gun's and ammo werent capable of delivering what was asked of them. I submit that this is the exception, and not the rule. I submit that most often in police tragidy's(sp) it's the tactics that fail. Not the equipment.


Glenn D.
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Old April 7, 2011, 07:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
IMO... No matter what the weapon pistol or revolver. Or the caliber .38 or .45 (and everything in between) it's the man or woman behind the gun that is the threat. There are some instances where gun's and ammo werent capable of delivering what was asked of them. I submit that this is the exception, and not the rule. I submit that most often in police tragidy's(sp) it's the tactics that fail. Not the equipment.


Glenn D.
I could not agree more, . . . but it is a cultural thing that has been fostered by our better living standards of today's society.

In a "hunter / gatherer" society of thousands of years ago, . . . it was eat or be eaten, . . . and every one was a survivor (or dinner) based upon their situational awareness, . . . their willingness to fight or flee at the first sign of danger.

We have bred complacency, tolerance, and even acceptance of bad behavior on others parts, . . . and then we wonder why these things happen.

OK, . . . off the soap box, . . .

May God bless,
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Old April 7, 2011, 08:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
I submit that most often in police tragidy's(sp) it's the tactics that fail. Not the equipment.
Or the skill to extract the benefits from the tactics. In this case I believe the officer used cover but failed to hit the bad guy.
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Old April 7, 2011, 08:11 AM   #10
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We have bred complacency, tolerance, and even acceptance of bad behavior on others parts, . . . and then we wonder why these things happen.
Good decent people sometimes give a little to much rope.

A good example is my temperment. In the couple of school fights I had I was basically pushed into a corner until I became so angry that I exploded. In one fight I was socket in the cheek before retaliating. As adults this goodness will get you knocked out in a fight. In a shootout it will get you killed.
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Old April 10, 2011, 02:01 AM   #11
ClydeFrog
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FBI/DoJ research, NIJ...

In the late 1990s I read an interesting article in the FBI's Law Enforcement Bulletin about a NIJ(National Institute of Justice) research project.
The DoJ research showed that many convicts who attacked LE officers did so in part for a # of reasons. The criminals would assess an officer's weapon(s), duty gear, uniform condition, fitness level and/or alertness(attention to detail).
These felons said they'd look for an "easy mark" or a LE officer they could "take".
The NIJ study also advised LEOs to be polite but firm. Officers who were lax or off guard were more likely to be attacked.
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Old April 10, 2011, 06:57 AM   #12
garryc
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Quote:
Good decent people sometimes give a little to much rope.
Good people hesitate to cross the line into uncivil conduct. It is in fact foreign territory for them. They simply cannot believe that evil people can live on whatever side of that line that suits them for the moment. Good people are naturally inhibited from conduct that harms others, evil people don't care.


The number of people I trust with my life I can count on two fingers of my left hand. Counting people with my right I use my middle finger with the possibility of my trigger finger.
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Old April 10, 2011, 07:27 AM   #13
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I know that many LEOs [myself, included] are worried about getting sued. I also know that this fear [which is obviously justified in this litigious society] has caused more than one of my colleagues to hesitate at the critical moment. It's caused many of us to pause for thought before striking a defensive blow or even firing in self-defense, and this hesitation has disastrous consequences for the LEOs in question. I know that one has to have considered all of these thoughts and issues and worked them out before one pins on a badge. That includes legal worries as well as whatever moral or religious qualms one may have concerning self-defense. The time for careful planning and working thorny issues out is before the critical incident, not during. Sadly, many of my brethren in blue don't do this, and it comes with a high price.
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Old April 10, 2011, 10:18 AM   #14
garryc
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Quote:
I know that many LEOs [myself, included] are worried about getting sued. I also know that this fear [which is obviously justified in this litigious society] has caused more than one of my colleagues to hesitate at the critical moment. It's caused many of us to pause for thought before striking a defensive blow or even firing in self-defense, and this hesitation has disastrous consequences for the LEOs in question. I know that one has to have considered all of these thoughts and issues and worked them out before one pins on a badge. That includes legal worries as well as whatever moral or religious qualms one may have concerning self-defense. The time for careful planning and working thorny issues out is before the critical incident, not during. Sadly, many of my brethren in blue don't do this, and it comes with a high price.

I'm in a worse situation. If I get attacked I am by myself. The only witness's are convicted felons. Management questions and takes their word. So, sad as it seems, in the law suit sense, and in some ways internally, I'm better off if I sustain some damage before responding.
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Old April 10, 2011, 10:39 AM   #15
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I guess it is just a matter of instinct, you react or you don't. If you are thinking about your tactics during a 'situation' then you are already finished. Enough training, particularily repeated simulation of expected senarios, and it becomes instinct. You don't think "oh my G*d I am in a crossfire, I gotta throw everything we have forward and fight my way out", you just react and do exactly that. If you thought about it first Sgt. Tillman would be not have been killed when he was, but you don't; so when he put his own people in the position of assuming they were in a crossfire, they opened up with everything they had on his position. They did the 'tactically correct thing' but it was instinct; Tillman did not do the 'tatically correct thing' but he thought about it first and made a, very heroic, but foolish decision. Frankly the military is not looking for a 'hero' but rather for well trained personell with good instincts.
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Old April 10, 2011, 10:01 PM   #16
ClydeFrog
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US law enforcement; legal issues, civil actions, Orange County FL...

Civil actions & lawsuits are very important but those concerns should not cloud judgement or prevent acting in a prudent manner.

Sometimes, LE agencies or public safety offices would rather settle a civil dispute than blame or admonish the sworn officers. In a recent court action in Orlando FL, Orange County Sheriff Jerry Demmings & his legal team decided to pay a family off for a shooting incident that involved multiple Orange County deputies & detectives. The OCSO deputies fired over 109 rounds at a violent subject. The LE agency considered the event not worth the extended time & $$$ to drag through the civil courts.

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Old April 10, 2011, 10:15 PM   #17
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Glenn Dee always saves me some typin'... thanks Glenn.

Beyond that... it has long been known that conditioned responses are the most effective in overcoming the OH SH_T factor and delivering the goods in time to save your bacon. Thuggo did A so I'm doing B. Once it's on, accept that and do what you have trained to do. Just understand that the fight you are in may not be the one you trained for, so you have to be able to adapt, pour it on and take the other guy(s) down and/or put them on the defensive.

I may lose but the winners are going to be damned easy to trail.
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Old April 11, 2011, 01:02 AM   #18
Glenn Dee
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Some officers dont have the luxury of timely assistance. I've known officers working rural posts where their back-up is twenty or thirty minutes away, And then from a different department. Sometimes an officer must deal with whatever situation alone. Although I am from a really large department, where back-up is usually minutes if not seconds away. I've still experienced being alone on a dangerous call... and no back-up available.

Often there isnt time to wait for help.... the folks who called you for help need help right now. Without going into specifics or telling war stories...I'll say that every cop has had his or her baptism of violence alone. It's just part of the job... well it is for those who do the job anyway.....

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