The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 29, 2011, 11:39 PM   #1
ripnbst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 1,385
AP 556 NATO Rounds

How is it legal to buy ARMOR PIERCING rounds as a civilian? I was recently at a show and they were selling it, I see it for sale all over the place online. Does anyone else wonder why we can legally buy armor piercing rounds?

I know no one here is for the restriction of anything related to firearms (speaking in generalities), and I'm with ya, but even I don't see a need for civilians to posses armor piercing rifle rounds.

Curious as to everyone's thoughts. I know its all milsurp stuff that I don't know WTH the gov would do with otherwise but I see no reason for a regular schmoe to buy it. Discuss.
ripnbst is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 01:00 AM   #2
Incognito
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2008
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 366
My guess is that it was M855/SS-109 with steel penetrators which are not considered AP, but are widely marketed as such. Here's a previous thread on this topic: link.

BTW, if AP rounds make you feel uneasy, how do you feel about short barreled rifles, suppressors, high-cap magazines, full-auto, folding stocks, switchblades, and so on
Incognito is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 01:10 AM   #3
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,890
I believe that there are specific exemptions in the law that allow civilians to purchase AP ammo in certain calibers.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 03:02 AM   #4
FrankenMauser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: 1B ID
Posts: 6,734
Quote:
Does anyone else wonder why we can legally buy armor piercing rounds?
... We can buy "armor piercing" rounds for the same reasons we can buy massive SUVs; gas-guzzling trucks with no useful payload capacity; sports cars with greater power-to-weight ratios than "anyone will ever need"; metal-tipped lawn darts; sixty inch blow guns; suppressed pellet rifles; riding lawn mowers; and robotic vacuums.

...Because none of these things is useless, or dangerous, by itself. It's when an ignorant idiot uses these things inappropriately, that the item is viewed in a different light.


Have you ever seen what happens when a robotic vacuum spills a bowl of 'cat water', sucks some into its motor, arcs into it's waste container, catches fire, causes the battery to explode, and causes 3 fatalities in the apartment building the idiot, ignorant owner burned down through negligence?

Does anyone else wonder why we can legally buy robotic vacuums?
__________________
"Such is the strange way that man works -- first he virtually destroys a species and then does everything in his power to restore it."
FrankenMauser is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 06:03 AM   #5
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,080
There are no restrictions on the ownership of rifle caliber armor piercing ammo that i'm aware of. Folks own thousands of rounds of armor piercing rifle ammo that never hurts anyone.

In the mid 90s the US Army developed an armor piercing round in 5.56mm-the M 995. Not sure that round was ever fielded: i've never seen one round of that ammo at gun shows or anywhere else. Ammo peddlers often call the SS109/M855 ammo "armor piercing" but it ain't.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m993.htm

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Sea...=3017&Items=50
thallub is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 09:50 AM   #6
B. Lahey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,835
Quote:
In the mid 90s the US Army developed an armor piercing round in 5.56mm-the M 995. Not sure that round was ever fielded
It was, and is.

A fellow on ar15.com currently in Afghanistan came across a pile of cans of M995, and posted about it. Other rare spottings have popped up here and there.
__________________
"A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards."
-George Orwell
B. Lahey is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 12:03 PM   #7
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,079
There's not much that's more dangerous than 5 dollar's worth of gasoline. No permit, background check, or even restrictions for felons. Why not?

When you answer that, and you've answered your own question.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 12:51 PM   #8
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,415
Quote:
I see no reason for a regular schmoe to buy it. Discuss.
Gosh, mister [redacted]. We don't need it for hunting wabbits or ducks do we?

but...

It is popular with some of the wild hog hunters I know.

Edited: Can we leave the second grade name-calling outside the forum?

Last edited by Al Norris; April 2, 2011 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Redacted invective
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 01:09 PM   #9
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,079
I need it for when a home invasion assailant is firing at me from behind my rack of stainless cookware.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 09:59 PM   #10
ripnbst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 1,385
^HAHA

Glad I came in here with my Nomex fire suit suit on for all the flaming I am getting. I am not against it, I agree with "people kill people" but allowing the purchase of AP rounds seemed to push the envelope to me a little bit. Why stop there? I'd sure like to hunt hogs with RPG's and hand grenades but those aren't likely to be legalized. That way I can take down several at one time. After all RPG's don't kill people, people kill people.

Again, I'm not a lefty, I just wanted to see what people here thought about it. Clearly no one seems to think its an issue so I got my answer.

This is the ammo that got me pondering 556 AP Rounds

Or hell, take a look at this stuff. Its AP Incendiary .50 cal ammo. Incendiary means explosive right? Not tracer? Tracers are cool and they have value to an average shooter going distance shooting and are fun to watch light up as you are firing. Incendiary would be cool too, not only do you shoot something but it blows up too? What more can a guy ask for, that would be insanely damaging. In fact, I think I just thought of something I'd rather take bear hunting than a .45-70 now haha, anything that will explode when it hits said bear.

Last edited by ripnbst; March 30, 2011 at 10:13 PM.
ripnbst is offline  
Old March 30, 2011, 10:37 PM   #11
That'll Do
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 547
^^^Incendiary does not equal explosive.

Incendiary rounds are designed to ignite whatever they come into contact with.
That'll Do is offline  
Old April 2, 2011, 06:01 PM   #12
frick74
Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2011
Posts: 34
They are not technically armor piercing, in that only the tip has a small hardened steel penetrator, and not the entire core.

Besides, any high power rifle ammo is going to pierce all armor vests except those with steel or ceramic plates, so, you are really fretting over every single round of high powered rifle ammo that exists right now.

And, while not armor piercing, your good old lead shotgun slugs would probably kill most vest wearers just from kinetic energy upon impact, even if the vest wasn't pierced.

Besides, AP ammo is like ****, dont own it, if you see no need to use it, and let the rest of us alone to do as we wish.
frick74 is offline  
Old April 4, 2011, 08:58 AM   #13
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 5,660
Quote:
This is the ammo that got me pondering 556 AP Rounds
Contrary to the ad, that is not armor-piercing. That is just plain ol' M855 ball with the steel penetrator tip. The 4.7gr penetrator was added so 5.56mm was able to penetrate 10 gauge mild steel at 600yds the way older M80 ball could. In terms of "armor penetrating", it is less AP than most of the ammunition used for deer hunting.

Quote:
I agree with "people kill people" but allowing the purchase of AP rounds seemed to push the envelope to me a little bit. Why stop there?
OK, how do you define armor piercing? Is it anything that pierces 10 gauge rolled steel? If so, at what distance? Depending on those two factors alone, you could ban 99% of the ammunition produced in the United States today. Just because someone calls it "armor piercing" doesn't make it more or less dangerous than any other bullet.

The same penetration that lets you take a quartering shot on an elk will let you shoot through a lot of things that some people would consider to be "armor." A police vest that will stop 9mm won't stop even small rifle bullets. Should all rifle bullets be considered armor-piercing?

It is how the term is defined that makes it tricky - and also makes it a common approach for people who want to ban firearms entirely.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old April 4, 2011, 04:52 PM   #14
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 1,801
Quote:
Glad I came in here with my Nomex fire suit suit on for all the flaming I am getting.
Wonder why that is?

Quote:
I am not against it, I agree with "people kill people" but allowing the purchase of AP rounds seemed to push the envelope to me a little bit.
You did not explain that very well.
Quote:
Why stop there? I'd sure like to hunt hogs with RPG's and hand grenades but those aren't likely to be legalized. That way I can take down several at one time. After all RPG's don't kill people, people kill people.
As noted most rifle rounds are already AP. A .338 Lapua is going through just about any body armor out there. Explosives and grenades are not guns. They blow things up and are not easily controlled like a gun, often with unpredictable effects. Storage and safety are a concern. I would say if the person had proper training and experience, could properly and safely store and handle explosives than there would be no reason not to allow them to have hand grenades or RPGs. There would be a more stringent requirement I think than for guns and ammunition.

Quote:
This is the ammo that got me pondering 556 AP Rounds
Not AP, and also sold out.

Quote:
Or hell, take a look at this stuff. Its AP Incendiary .50 cal ammo. Incendiary means explosive right? Not tracer? Tracers are cool and they have value to an average shooter going distance shooting and are fun to watch light up as you are firing.
As noted you are incorrect about what incendiary rounds do. Tracers have lots of other uses other than your personal entertainment and enjoyment. Although those are valid reasons as any to own some.

You seem to be looking for a reason to own AP rounds to justify why people should be "allowed" to own them. Has it occurred to you that maybe this attitude is backwards?
__________________
Proxima est Mors, Malum Nullum adhibit Misericordiam
MTT TL is offline  
Old April 4, 2011, 05:14 PM   #15
thrgunsmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 28, 2007
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 196
its not the bill of needs, its the Bill Of Rights!

Quote:
I don't see a need for civilians to posses armor piercing rifle rounds.
I don't see a need for civilians to posses the internet.
I don't see a need for civilians to posses Bibles or Korans.
I don't see a need for civilians to posses writing implements.
I don't see a need for civilians to posses private property.


Needs & rights are two different animals, did you know that any felon can go buy highly explosive chemicals? ( Gasoline & other explosive fuels)
__________________
R.I.P Sam "Trout" Barbetta
82nd Airborne, S.F biker, friend.
http://www.ahalenia.com/memorial/sbarbetta.html
thrgunsmith is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10045 seconds with 9 queries