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Old March 26, 2011, 01:40 PM   #1
TyCarp
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Cycling Problems - 9mm

First off wanted to say I'm new to reloading and this seems like a good forum. Lot of good information here.

I was reloading 9mm with Unique using Berry's 124gr hollow points using Lee's auto disk. Lee's Modern Reloading - 2nd Edition did not have information for Unique 124gr copper plated so I searched and some other people on here had ran into that same problem and said it would be OK to use 125gr jacketed bullet information for Unique. This load had a starting load of 4.8 grains and calls for the .49 Autodisk which I used. Never exceed was 4.9 grains. I kept OAL at 1.155 as the minimum is 1.15 and much larger than 1.16 its a tight fit in the magazine.

I walked out back and shot 20 rounds of this load through my Glock 19. About half the time the case would not even eject and if it did the next round would not chamber completely.

If you look at the Auto-disk capacity chart it has the .49 size hole providing 4.5 grains and .53 putting out 4.9 grains, which would be the Never exceed load. My question is this. Would it be OK to go to .53?

The casings come out with black on one side which is a sign of low pressure meaning I should be able to bump up to 4.9 grains, correct?

Thanks in advance, guys
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Old March 26, 2011, 01:51 PM   #2
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Do you have a scale to weigh the charges?
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Old March 26, 2011, 01:52 PM   #3
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The loads that Lee shows with their Auto Disk is generally low. But you need a powder scale to be sure. I have to try several holes to get what I want. And for some, the adjustable powder bar is what I have to use. But not one powder I've tried matches the load that Lee publishes.
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Old March 26, 2011, 02:15 PM   #4
Jim243
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Your problem is not your load, the problem is you OAL.

124 (125 JHP) grain HP is 1.075 for correct pressure. If you have concerns you could use a OAL of 1.090. What you are experiencing is low pressure because there is too much room left in your case.

What book are you useing, go buy the Lyman 49th since you are using non-standard components. For Unique max charge is 5.0 grains - 4.9 would not be a problem but a bit too fast for Berry Bullets (semi-lead). Plated bullets have lower friction in the barrel and move out faster than copper bullets, that's why you are losing pressure and not getting a complete seal in the barrel and burnt powder around the case mouth. Besides, it is my understanding that Glocks don't like plated bullets because of their rifling. May or may not be true, I don't own a Glock.


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Last edited by Jim243; March 26, 2011 at 02:28 PM.
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Old March 26, 2011, 03:07 PM   #5
FrankenMauser
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Trim a few hundredths off that OAL, and weigh your charges. I'm willing to bet the actual charge weight being dropped is several tenths of a grain below what the chart says it should be.
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Old March 26, 2011, 04:02 PM   #6
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PA-Joe: "Do you have a scale to weigh the charges?"
What He ^^ said.
How many lots of powder have been produced since that info was published for your measure? How much do they vary in density? I don't know either. Unique seems to vary more than other powders just to add entertainment value. If you have a scale, you will always know what's coming out of your measure.
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Old March 26, 2011, 04:50 PM   #7
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Jim243: I disagree. You should always load 9x19 and .40S&W to the maximum COL that fits the magazine and feeds and functions. There is NO single magic COL that is best for every gun. You will also be happy, though you won't know it, if you ever have bullet set-back and your gun doesn't blow up because you are shooting too short and the set-back gave you tremendously too short.

O.P.:
1) Weight you charge weight
2) 0.49 disk will throw 3.6-3.7gn. 0.53cc will throw 4.0gn. 0.61cc will throw 4.7gn.
3) The "not to exceed" is determined by weighing. Lee has a statement that the "not to exceed" charges must be weighed.
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Old March 26, 2011, 07:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Jim243: I disagree. You should always load 9x19 and .40S&W to the maximum COL that fits the magazine and feeds and functions.
Quick question. If that's the case how come every manual I have looked at show the test load at a shorter OAL than max? I'll bet with some HP's you would be lucky to have 1/8" of the bullet in the case if loaded to just fit the mag. I have never loaded at max OAL and tend to load closer to what the load manuals recommend which seem to be closer to what Jim243 said.
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Old March 27, 2011, 01:21 AM   #9
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noylj

One of the reasons I do not have set back on my rounds is that EVERY case loaded goes through a Factory Crimp Die, no it does not crimp it (DA) it insures that the case is flush with the bullet all the way around and that the flare put on the case with the powder through die is gone and that there will not be any set back.

If you DO NOT WANT to follow the instructions in your reloading manual, then you do not need to come here and ask us why your loads are not working. If you are following them and still having problems, we are always happy to help out.

The max OAL is only there to inform you of the max length that will fit in your magazine, it has NOTHING to do with what it should be for the bullet design or length of any individual bullet, that is different for each manufacturer and type in this case 124 grain Hollow Points.


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Last edited by Jim243; March 27, 2011 at 01:34 AM.
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Old March 27, 2011, 07:04 PM   #10
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Shooting Berrys bullets which are great the will keyhole using the Glock barrel. The solution for me in a glock 19 and a 17 was to get bullets .002" over the groove dia. which is .355 in 9mm.
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Old March 27, 2011, 11:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
The solution for me in a glock 19 and a 17 was to get bullets .002" over the groove dia. which is .355 in 9mm.
Only in theory....

If you slug your barrel, you'll probably find it to be an unexpected dimension (anything, but .355").
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Old March 28, 2011, 01:00 AM   #12
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COL in loading manuals

I'm sorry, but the COL in the manuals is either a recommended minimum (not to load shorter) or is a SAAMI recommendation that, again, is a not to load shorter. It is strictly a "guideline only."
I will always load long. I will always ensure that my expander opens the case up to 0.001-0.002" less than bullet OD. This is where you get proper bullet-to-case tension to prevent set-back. If your expander leaves the case ID less than this, then you get bullet bulge and need an FCD to iron things out.

The following appears in several loading manuals:

SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
Western Powders would like to thank the
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load.
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Old March 28, 2011, 01:13 AM   #13
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You might take a look at the Alliant web site for 9mm loads using Unique:


http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...23&bulletid=26


Reloader's Guide
Alliant Powder Reload Recipes


← Back
Recipe
Print This Recipe
Pistols and Revolvers
9mm Luger
•124 gr Speer GDHP

Minimum OAL
(inches) Bbl Length Primer Powder Charge Weight
(grains) Velocity
(fps) Print
1.12 4 CCI 500 Bullseye 4.4 1,059 View this recipe
1.12 4 CCI 500 American Select 5 1,053 View this recipe
1.12 4 CCI 500 Unique 5.8 1,180 View this recipe
1.12 4 CCI 500 Blue Dot 7.9 1,238 View this recipe
1.12 4 CCI 500 Power Pistol 6.4 1,157 View this recipe
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Old March 28, 2011, 07:04 AM   #14
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Do not trust the Lee charge disk data. For me it has been under in every case I can remember. It's not uncommon to have to go 2 sizes larger to get the proper charge weight. I automatically try the next hole up when trying to get the proper charge weight. I'm sure Lee does this for liability reasons. You should only reload with a scale as you can run into more serious problems if you don't verify charge weights.
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Old March 28, 2011, 05:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but the COL in the manuals is either a recommended minimum (not to load shorter) or is a SAAMI recommendation that, again, is a not to load shorter. It is strictly a "guideline only."
Yes but as you just said it is ok to load to the length in the manual. You don't have to load evry round to fit the magazine. If you like to load long then that's fine for you but it's not the standard or the only way to do it. There is no way I'm going to load HP's or SWC's to fit the magazine.
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Old March 28, 2011, 05:41 PM   #16
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Scratching Head??

Seems kinda strange to my neophyite mind that the OP mentioned mentioned a starting load of 4.8 and do not exceed of 4.9 grains.

Guess that would make testing fairly simple.
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Old March 28, 2011, 07:04 PM   #17
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Quote:
Seems kinda strange to my neophyite mind that the OP mentioned mentioned a starting load of 4.8 and do not exceed of 4.9 grains.
You'll probably never get an answer (I think he's improperly labeling some of the Lee data). The OP hasn't returned since his initial post.
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Old March 28, 2011, 07:54 PM   #18
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Just to beat a dead horse, note that Alliant is clear that the COL is the MINIMUM recommended.
They say, in their manual:
Most pistols and revolvers function best when loaded with a quick burning powder such as Bullseye. Since peak pressure is reached very quickly, the seating depth of the bullet is very important: the deeper the bullet, the higher the pressure. If the bullet is seated too deeply, dangerous pressures will be generated, which could burst the gun and cause severe personal injury (including death)...
A. Prevent deeply seated bulets.
1. Your assembled cartridges MUST be as long as, or longer than, the minimum length for the combination you are loading...
5. Be sure every bullet is held tightly by shell mouth, especially pistol loads (recoil drives magazine against bullet noses of contained cartridges."
Again, I load rounds that fit the magazine (the minimum COL obviously does that) and feeds and chambers reliably. The use of the longest COL that accomplishes that is where I want to be. My first experience reloading was for a Browning Hi-Power. That gun would only feed over a very narrow range of COL and I quickly learned to always make an inert dummy round or two to verify chambering and to ensure that there was no bullet setback after a couple of cycles. This was about 1977, and I have never found a better method.
I'm not telly YOU how to load, I am trying to inform the O.P. that there is NOT one single "perfect" COL that works for all guns. The original post I was commenting on basically said that you should ONLY use the COL listed in the manual, which is NOT a recommendation that any manual makes.
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Old March 29, 2011, 04:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Most pistols and revolvers function best when loaded with a quick burning powder such as Bullseye. Since peak pressure is reached very quickly, the seating depth of the bullet is very important: the deeper the bullet, the higher the pressure. If the bullet is seated too deeply, dangerous pressures will be generated, which could burst the gun and cause severe personal injury (including death)...
Agree, that is why there is a min and max load data and you should always start low and work up.

Quote:
Your assembled cartridges MUST be as long as, or longer than, the minimum length for the combination you are loading...
Also agree but the min is shorter than loading to fit the magazine. Again that's why we start low and work up the load.

Quote:
I'm not telly YOU how to load, I am trying to inform the O.P. that there is NOT one single "perfect" COL that works for all guns. The original post I was commenting on basically said that you should ONLY use the COL listed in the manual, which is NOT a recommendation that any manual makes.
I understand and am not telling you or anybody else how to load either. Just commenting like you that there are many options for OAL of a round. I got the impression that you are recommending to always load so that the round just fits the magazine. I was just trying to point out that with HP's, FP's and SWC's that won't leave much bullet in the case.
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