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Old March 25, 2011, 03:03 PM   #1
Bill Akins
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Need info on any single grain increment BP revolver powder measure.

I have a BP revolver powder measure that has increments that show at every ten grains. But I can set it anywhere between those ten grain measurements. However, since the lines of measurement of my measure show only every ten grains, it is difficult to almost impossible to get an accurate measurement if I want to set it to somewhere between the ten grain increments.

I can get a measure that has 5 grain increments like this one but that still doesn't get me the single grain increments I would like to have....


5 grain increments is more accurate than my 10 grain increment one, but not as accurate as I'd like to be if I want to go smaller than 5 grain increments.

I'd like to know if any of you know of any single grain increment pocket sized powder measures for BP revolvers. That would be much more accurate for me to use instead of setting my measure at a guess between the 10 grain increment lines like I currently do. I'm probably pretty close to the 22 grains that I want, but a single grain increment measure would help me be more exact and accurate with my loads.

Any knowledge or links to single grain BP revolver powder measures would be greatly appreciated.


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Old March 25, 2011, 04:24 PM   #2
mulefour
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pistol measure

Dixie Gun Works has a pistol measure that is marked in 5 grain increments.
0 to 50 grains
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Old March 25, 2011, 05:20 PM   #3
kwhi43@kc.rr.com
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The one from Dixie is about as fine adjustment as your gona get.

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Old March 25, 2011, 09:26 PM   #4
mykeal
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I've never seen an adjustable powder measure graduated any finer than 5 grains.

Just curious - can you really tell the difference between loads different by one grain of volume???
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Old March 25, 2011, 10:47 PM   #5
Bill Akins
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Thanks for trying to help Mulefour and kwhi43@kc.rr.com, but the powder measure you both described and even showed is the same 5 grain increment one that I spoke of and showed in my first post.

Mykeal, the reason I want a finer graduation in increments measure, is not necessarily because I want just one extra grain of powder. (But it could be). It's more that I want two or so more extra grains. Sure I could fire 20 grain loads in my .44, but I've been loading a tad over 20 grains with my other measure and guesstimating where 22 grains is. I'd simply like to know accurately for sure. Plus with non adjustable sights it nice to be able to try smaller increments than 5 to walk into the bullseye better with. Five grains is actually quite a bit. I just want smaller increments for finer tuning the load. Sure I could set the measure between the 5 increment marks of the dixie measure to get 2 & 1/2 grains more, but I'm doing that guesstimating already with my 10 grain increment measure. I don't want to have to guess. I want to know as accurately as I can. Here is the same 10 grain line increments sliding funnel measure I have, only mine is all brass, not with a plastic funnel and plunger like this below one is....


I know that tapping the measure will compress the load and I can get more grains into the measure, but that isn't consistent. So I pour from my flask into the measure, side my attached funnel over the end and then load. I just want to be able to do that at whatever single grain increment I choose.

I reload so I have a scale for very accurate measurements and even an adjustable powder thrower that I set with my scale. But trying to use a scale at the range is cumbersome in good weather, with a little wind (as is usual) it plays heck with dribbling powder in it and will blow the powder away.

I find nothing unusual about looking for a powder measure that can measure in single grains just like my scale does. I mean why not?

What I'm looking for is an adjustable pocket powder measure similar in style to that dixie one with the pivoting funnel (or even a sliding funnel like my current 10 grain one is). Only one that's marked in single grain increment lines instead of just 5 or 10 grain increment lines.

If I can't find it, I might just have to measure out my powder charges on my scale at home, go up a grain at a time and then pour them into the powder measure and scratch a mark on my measure's plunger and then jeweler file that mark so it's easy to see and make my own single grain increment powder measure. It's just that it would be nice to have one already made like that and not have to do all that measuring and marking and filing.


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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; March 26, 2011 at 04:28 PM.
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Old March 25, 2011, 11:11 PM   #6
Hawg Haggen
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You can measure real bp just like smokeless but not the subs. The bp weights are what smokeless weights are based on but trust me you won't be able to tell the difference with a two or three grain difference. That's why you won't find a measure with finer markings.
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Old March 25, 2011, 11:49 PM   #7
Bill Akins
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Never mind fellas. I found a Treso 1 to 30 grain brass measure that is adjustable in line increments of 1 grain. At this link....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tchlink:top:en

Except for being without the funnel, it's just what I wanted. Now I'll get one and attach a pivoting funnel to the end of it. Perfect. Problem solved. Just wish they already made it with the funnel attached. Sigh, always something.


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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; March 26, 2011 at 12:46 AM.
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Old March 26, 2011, 05:59 AM   #8
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I'm not sure if you just neglected to mention it or if you don't do it, but you're not getting consistent measurements if you don't tap the measure to settle the powder.

You're looking to 'walk' the POI onto the X with 2 grain (or less?) load changes. I'll be honest - I just don't see that happening with a revolver. Maybe on an indoor range from a pistol rest and small calibers, but it just seems very unlikely anyone could see the difference two grains makes at 25 yards outdoors offhand with a .36 or .45.

Anyway, I'm glad you found the measure. Even though I'm skeptical I hope it works out as you want. It's good to see care and attention to detail rewarded.

Edit: Treso brand products are manufactured (distributed/marketed?) by The House of Muskets in Colorado. Their current catalog (dated 2005) lists this powder measure as a new product. Be aware the catalog contains a caveat regarding powder measures: "The indicated charges are at best only approximate due to the different powder grain size and other variables."

Last edited by mykeal; March 26, 2011 at 07:54 AM.
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Old March 26, 2011, 08:30 AM   #9
c.robertson
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Well, you could always spread the powder out on a sheet of white paper and count out the grains, then load them.
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Old March 26, 2011, 08:31 AM   #10
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Bill

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Old March 26, 2011, 10:13 AM   #11
Rifleman1776
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You are picking nits. One or two grains will not make a (noticable) difference with bp.
However, if you want to get perzactly the measure you desire make yourself a measure. They are easy to make from many materials. One of the easiest is to use a length of copper tubing, squish one end in a vice, drill a hole in the squished part for a thong if you wish, pour in the exact amount of powder you are after, mark the top, hacksaw the tube to that length, double check to make sure it is what you want and you are set for life. BTW, the copper darkens and takes on an 'old looking' patina very quickly. I have one I made and have used for thirty years. No one has ever pointed to it and said "that ain't authentic".
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Old March 26, 2011, 04:23 PM   #12
Bill Akins
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Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
I'm not sure if you just neglected to mention it or if you don't do it, but you're not getting consistent measurements if you don't tap the measure to settle the powder.
I used to tap each charge on my revolvers. But I only do that now on my CVA .50 cal single shot rifle. It takes too long to tap each charge in the measure for a six shot revolver. And the more you tap it, the more it settles and the more powder you have to keep putting in it to fill that same charge. Then if you don't use the same amount of force tapping, and don't tap each and every charge the same exact same amount of times and use the exact same amount of force tapping,..... you'll get charges that are more tightly compacted or less tightly compacted than other charges are. Plus like I said, it takes a long time to pour...tap...pour some more....tap some more....pour some more....then load. SIX TIMES. So what I do these days is just pour the powder into the measure, just ever so slightly vibrate it/tap it to level off the powder at the top (not to compress it), slide my attached funnel over the charge and load it.

I know I am firing a lighter load doing it that way because I am not compressing the powder in the measure to where more could be added to top it off. But that's okay, I like light loads. I believe my loads for all six chambers are more consistent doing it this way because I haven't tapped any one charge with more or less force than another charge. Or added more compacted powder in this charge compared to another charge. See what I mean? I pour from the spout for each and every one. They all lay the same in the measure without any one charge being more compacted than the other. Then I just slightly shake or very gently tap the charge to level it at the top of the measure so my funnel can slide over it for pouring.
I believe the key to accuracy is consistency in loading.

Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
You're looking to 'walk' the POI onto the X with 2 grain (or less?) load changes. I'll be honest - I just don't see that happening with a revolver. Maybe on an indoor range from a pistol rest and small calibers, but it just seems very unlikely anyone could see the difference two grains makes at 25 yards outdoors offhand with a .36 or .45.
Perhaps in shooting offhand you are correct MyKeal. But do you scope in your rifle offhand or benchrest it? Which is more accurate to let you know what your groupings are? It's the same with my revolvers. I sandbag benchrest them to try and get the very best groups I can get. Then once I find the right load that groups the best benchresting like that, then when I do shoot them offhand, I can be assured they will be as accurate as they can be.

Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
Anyway, I'm glad you found the measure. Even though I'm skeptical I hope it works out as you want. It's good to see care and attention to detail rewarded.
I look at it this way, Treso wouldn't make a single grain line increments powder measure if they didn't see a need for one. And at least now I can be more accurate with my loading charges than I was before where I was just guessing the single grains somewhere in between 10 or 5 grain measurement lines. It certainly won't hurt anything to have a measure that measures individual grain volumes. And as long as I only use the same grade of grain (FFFg) in the measure it should always be consistent. It's kind of like....I could use a yardstick that only has quarter inch line measurements or I could use a more precise measuring stick that shows 1/64's or even finer measurements. It never hurts to be more exact and to know what that measurement is as exactly best as you can without actually weighing it out on the scale (which is too cumbersome for range shooting).

Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
Edit: Treso brand products are manufactured (distributed/marketed?) by The House of Muskets in Colorado. Their current catalog (dated 2005) lists this powder measure as a new product. Be aware the catalog contains a caveat regarding powder measures: "The indicated charges are at best only approximate due to the different powder grain size and other variables."
Yep. And here's the House of Muskets' (manufacturer or Treso products) link for their phone number (I couldn't get their actual website to load on my computer for some reason)....

http://pc.pagosachamber.com/list/Mem...sa-springs.htm

I've already left a phone message there today for someone to call me back to see if they make that single grain line increment measure with a sliding or pivoting funnel attached or if I will have to cobble my own funnel for it. But either way, whether they make one with the funnel attached or I have to attach my own funnel, I'm getting this Treso single grain increments measure. After clicking on the below link, then click to enlarge the photo and you can see the individual grain line graduations on the plunger.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT


.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; March 26, 2011 at 05:17 PM.
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Old March 26, 2011, 04:43 PM   #13
Hawg Haggen
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Quote:
I believe the key to accuracy is consistency in loading.
That's true but bp ain't smokeless. I'm betting you won't be able to tell a one to three grain difference. I'd almost bet you couldn't tell a five grain difference.

Last edited by Hawg Haggen; March 26, 2011 at 04:48 PM.
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Old March 26, 2011, 05:09 PM   #14
Bill Akins
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My problem of wanting a funnel on the Treso measure is solved. I couldn't get the House Of Muskets main website to come up on my computer. But I found them on a chamber of commerce site with their number and called them and left a message earlier today. Then I called them again and just now finished speaking with the owner J.P. on the phone. He said his measure doesn't need a funnel because its small diameter tube he said will even fit down the barrel of a .44, so it doesn't need a funnel to get the powder into the chambers. The powder tube is more than small enough without a funnel. Great, problem solved. Talked with him a bit about his Treso smaller diameter touch holes nipples too and I'll be placing an order for nipples and that single grain increments powder measure.


.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; March 26, 2011 at 05:22 PM.
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Old March 26, 2011, 07:16 PM   #15
mykeal
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You'll like the nipples. I'm a big fan of Treso Ampco nipples.

Quote:
if you don't use the same amount of force tapping, and don't tap each and every charge the same exact same amount of times and use the exact same amount of force tapping,..... you'll get charges that are more tightly compacted or less tightly compacted than other charges are.
I think you misunderstand the effect tapping the measure has. It doesn't compress the powder, it settles it. Once the grains have settled and reached equilibrium, whether it's one tap or two, they will not settle more. And the amount of force used to tap the measure has nothing to do with how the grains settle - they settle into place by gravity, not by the shock impact on the side of the tube. And besides, if you're benching the gun, why are you in such a big hurry?
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Old March 27, 2011, 08:14 AM   #16
wogpotter
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I'll bet that the diameter is small enough. Mine is marked in 5 Gr increments & fits inside a 44 chamber. One small enough in diameter to mark 1 gr will probably fit inside a .36 bore!
(I do wonder how easy it is to fill something that size though, it must be tiny to have enough space to mark 1 Gr.)
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Old March 27, 2011, 09:14 AM   #17
arcticap
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A flask with a spout allows for the precise filling of a powder measure.
I try to do it over a plastic container to collect whatever powder may spill over.
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Old March 27, 2011, 07:00 PM   #18
Bill Akins
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Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
I think you misunderstand the effect tapping the measure has. It doesn't compress the powder, it settles it.
Well, I guess we could call it "settling", "compacting" or "compressing" whenever a powder's grains are manipulated to be brought closer together with less air space between them to where it takes up less space than it did when first poured. True I am not forcing it into compression with a plunger but whether I call it "compressing", "compacting" or you call it "settling" you understand what I meant. I.E. the powder takes up less space when the measure is tapped downward forcing the grains closer together and eliminating air space between them.

Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
Once the grains have settled and reached equilibrium, whether it's one tap or two, they will not settle more.
Your experience may have differed from mine. My experience has been that I have had to tap the powder measure at least 4 or 5 times to get the first pour "settled" which makes more space for me to pour more powder. Then I have to tap the powder measure again 4 or 5 times to settle the additional powder I poured. Then that second dose of powder I poured has settled so that I add a teeny bit more and then I tap it a few times again to get that last pour bit level with the top of the measure. That is a time consuming pain. I quit doing that and now just pour once to fill the measure and level the powder off and then load it. Of course that means I am putting less powder in than if I had tapped the powder measure multiple times to "compact", "settle" or "compress" the powder. But that's okay, I like light loads especially since my revolvers are nickel and since I recently found that the magnet don't stick on the frames, they are most likely brass under nickel, so light loads are better for them anyway.

Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
And the amount of force used to tap the measure has nothing to do with how the grains settle - they settle into place by gravity, not by the shock impact on the side of the tube.
Again, perhaps your experience differs from mine. But it has been my experience that the amount of force I use to tap the powder measure downward does affect how the grains settle. If I just lightly tap it they do not settle as low as if I had smartly tapped it. Or it takes more light taps to do the same amount of settling compared to smart taps that settle it quicker. My opinion is that the shock of the tapping impact on the measuring tube does cause the grains to settle more so than gravity does. Because if it was just gravity making the grains settle, then there would be no need to tap the measure and the grains would gravity settle on their own when first poured.

Quote:
MyKeal wrote:
And besides, if you're benching the gun, why are you in such a big hurry?
It's not that I'm in a big hurry, but if I have a loading technique that works for me and does away with multiple tapping, pouring more into the measure, multiple tapping again, pouring more into the measure again, multiple tapping again and then FINALLY loading the first chamber of the cylinder, and doing that for EACH of six chambers,.... and said technique saves me time and motion (and lessens the chances of spilling powder with multiple taps) then I think that's a good thing. Works for me anyway. Each to their own.


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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old March 27, 2011, 07:06 PM   #19
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Wogpotter wrote:
I'll bet that the diameter is small enough. Mine is marked in 5 Gr increments & fits inside a 44 chamber. One small enough in diameter to mark 1 gr will probably fit inside a .36 bore!
The owner of the House Of Muskets (Treso) told me that the diameter is plenty small enough to load my .44 chambers and that's why they don't need a funnel on it. He didn't say if it would fall down a .36 barrel but he did say it would fall down a .44 barrel if you shoved it in it.

Quote:
Wogpotter wrote:
(I do wonder how easy it is to fill something that size though, it must be tiny to have enough space to mark 1 Gr.)
He told me the fill tube is about 3/8ths diameter.


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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".
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Old March 27, 2011, 07:23 PM   #20
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Arcticap wrote:
A flask with a spout allows for the precise filling of a powder measure.
That's what I do Arcticap. I filed down my spout to where it only holds about 22 grains when I pour it into my measure. (I only use .44 calibers so I use the same balls and loads in everything). We've all seen people ill advisedly load directly from the flask spout. And when they do that, it is the same as when I put my finger over the spout, tip the flask over and allow the grains to fill my flask's spout, then release the valve so the grains are trapped in my spout, and then pour that into my measure to load the chamber.

Only difference between loading directly from the spout with unsettled powder is that I use a measure in between the flask and the revolver. Loading directly from the spout doesn't give you the opportunity to settle the grains before loading. Just like when I don't tap my measure anymore to settle the powder. But we all know the danger of having a flask go off like a grenade in your hand, so even though my loading technique has the same effect as loading directly from the flask (I.E. not settling the powder by tapping) I ALWAYS use a measure to load each chamber. Better to have singed eyebrows and maybe a blistered finger from one charge igniting if an ember is there rather than a blown off hand or dead from the entire flask blowing up. Probability of an ember in the chamber from a previous shot is very slight (especially if not using nitrated paper loads or cigarette papers) ....but it only takes once to kill you.

I know you weren't advocating loading directly from the flask spout Arcticap, just underscoring this for any newbie's that might be reading.

Newbies.....ALWAYS USE A POWDER MEASURE. NEVER LOAD DIRECTLY FROM THE FLASK. EVER. NOT EVEN ON A COLD GUN BECAUSE YOU COULD GET INTO A HABIT AND THEN ACCIDENTALLY FORGET AND LOAD A HOT GUN WITH AN EMBER IN THE CHAMBER. BOOM! FLASK BLOWS AND YOU'RE LIKELY DEAD OR WISH YOU WERE BECAUSE NOW YOU'RE PERMANENTLY BLIND FROM POWDER BURNS AND WITH NO HAND.

Quote:
Arcticap wrote:
I try to do it over a plastic container to collect whatever powder may spill over.
Same here. Not only saves powder but keeps the benchrest clean and no bits of powder that could be ignited by the muzzle flash or barrel to cylinder gap flash and burn a hole in your sleeve while you are benchrest shooting.


.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; March 27, 2011 at 07:48 PM.
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Old March 28, 2011, 07:35 AM   #21
wogpotter
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Quote:
the fill tube is about 3/8ths diameter
Interesting! My 5~55Gr in 5 Gr increments is exactly that diameter
I wonder if this isn't just a marking change to a 5 Gr one as it has the identical diameter? Those 1 Gr marks must be really close together the 5 gr ones on mine are only about 1/8" apart!

(Mine is very similar to the Dixie one from the post above, but without the funnel.
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Old March 28, 2011, 08:33 AM   #22
madcratebuilder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wogpotter
Interesting! My 5~55Gr in 5 Gr increments is exactly that diameter
I wonder if this isn't just a marking change to a 5 Gr one as it has the identical diameter? Those 1 Gr marks must be really close together the 5 gr ones on mine are only about 1/8" apart!
I have both 5 and 1 grain marked measures, the only difference is the veneer scale on the rod, same body and size.



1-3 grain changes in the powder charge well not have a visible effect on accuracy. To optimize accuracy work on consistent seating depth and pressure. A loading stand with a adjustable ram well help this. Be sure and place the rb so the spur is in the same place every time, I like mine facing straight up.
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Old March 28, 2011, 10:55 AM   #23
wogpotter
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I admit I messed with my load, tweaking till I got the best accuracy I could, then I cheated!

I scribed a line on the back of the scale slider at the point where everything "came together" It seems to be 29 Gr as near as I can tell.
Then I bought a 30 grain powder spout, & measured it (28 Gr, Curses!) Used a chamfer/deburr tool from the reloading bench to taper the sharp shoulder inside the join with the flask & spout (30 Gr Drat!) & finally filed & chamferred/deburred the tip of the spout to 29 Gr (whoopee!).

What I do now is drop the 29 Grs into the measure which is set to 30 Gr. If the dispensed load JUST stops shy of the top of the cavity I have a good load & have a buffer for safety between the flask & the cylinder.
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