9 mm ammo puzzle

Topload · March 10, 2011, 05:24 PM

Howdy,

While I'm not a total newbie to reloading (have been reloading handgun and rifle ammo for sometime) but I've never reloaded 9mm ammo before and I have a couple of questions. I'm using new Remington brass, and Hornady 124 gr. HP/XTP bullets - brass has been full length resized, starting bullet depth / OAL set so that the round fell easily into the chamber of the CZ-75 Compact (barrel / camber is removed from the gun). Getting the round out of the chamber is another matter, I have to use my thumbnail to pry the round loose to get it out. Using factory ammo. (WW white box, 115 gr. FMJ) the round falls in and out of the camber easily without any mechanical persuasion. OAL on the WW factory rounds average 1.160 - my handloads are averaging 1.100, but I'm aware that the bullet shape has a lot to do with the differences...maybe. I'm thinking that the sticking may be related to the bullet touching the lands but can't be certain. I've tried dropping un-loaded brass into the chamber and it falls in and out without difficulty....gets me back to thinking that the bullet is causing the friction.

At any rate, I'm wondering if this is an issue that will cause feed / extract difficulties when I try to fire this round and should I set the bullet even deeper to see if I can eliminate the sticking? Or maybe none of this is the issue and I need to look elsewhere??

Dave R · March 10, 2011, 05:28 PM

Could be that you are seating too long and bullets are hitting the lands. Try a dummy round (no powder or primer) shorter and see if that helps.

Another thought--could be a belling/taper issue. If you over-bell, even when you taper you leave a bit of a bulge that can cause stickiness. Ask me how I know...

Over-tapering can also cause it. Bell just enough to seat the bullet, and taper just enough to remove the bell. See if that helps.

Topload · March 10, 2011, 05:41 PM

I followed my seating operation with a light crimp. I think the Lee die that I'm using for the crimp is supposed to correct any bell/taper issue.....kind of directs me back to bullet depth.

I'll give the dummy round approach a try and see if a deeper set will yield better results.

noylj · March 10, 2011, 05:49 PM

.Load an inert dummy as recommended.
Seat bullet out to 1.160". Remove just enough of the case mouth belling/flare so the round drops into the chamber. This COL may be a little long. Use marker or Sharpie and "paint" the bullet and the case mouth area of the case. Drop it in chamber and twist it around a little. There will be scrape marks on the dummy that show if the problem is too long a COL or the case mouth still having too much flare.
Chack that the dummy round fits your magazine and, after getting the dummy to chamber freely in your barrel, reassemble the gun and load the dummy in the magazine. Verify that if feeds and chamber.
If your COL is less than the manual's recommended minimum COL, be sure to drop the starting load and work up.

Topload · March 10, 2011, 06:01 PM

Sounds like a solid approach - I'm heading back to the loading bench!

Thanks noylj.

Topload · March 10, 2011, 08:17 PM

Took a couple of attempts but got me to the result I needed. Using magic marker (as suggested) I marked the bullet & case, started bullet seat depth at 1.160 and kept increasing bullet seat depth until the stickiness disappeared. Case OAL ended up at 1.090 - the marks on the bullet from the lands, disappeared at about 1.093 so I moved the seat depth to 1.090 to make sure I wasn't going to have any problems with any other accumulated tolerances while loading remaining rounds.

Really appreciate the info., thanks all for your insight.

peter_s · March 10, 2011, 09:23 PM

FYI - the published Hornady data for the 124 grain XTP was developed at a 1.060" OAL. I load them at 1.070" with a slightly heavier than published charge and they shoot pretty well.

I had a discussion on another thread about this issue before realizing I was in a rifle thread. Anyhow, one thing to keep in mind is that the round headspaces on the case mouth, but you are seating based on an overall length of the cartridge. The distance from the case mouth to the tip of the bullet is actually going to change if your brass is different lengths.

If you only gave yourself 0.003" clearance, then a case that is 0.003" shorter than the one you used to develop the OAL of 1.090" is going to put your bullet back into the rifling.

Leaving the argument aside as to whether the round "headspaces" off the extractor on very short cases, you might want to look at a tad more than 0.003" clearance.

Topload · March 10, 2011, 10:49 PM

Thanks Peter - good point. I didn't realize that the round headspaced off the case mouth. A .003" margin does seem a little tight - I'm well under max with the powder load so I imagine I could push the bullet a bit deeper just for the sake of getting a bit more distance from the lands.

Appreciate your post.

jrhtrader · March 13, 2011, 02:17 PM

Might a LEE factory crimp die help?

March 10, 2011, 05:24 PM	#1
Topload Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Florissant, MO. Posts: 36	9 mm ammo puzzle Howdy, While I'm not a total newbie to reloading (have been reloading handgun and rifle ammo for sometime) but I've never reloaded 9mm ammo before and I have a couple of questions. I'm using new Remington brass, and Hornady 124 gr. HP/XTP bullets - brass has been full length resized, starting bullet depth / OAL set so that the round fell easily into the chamber of the CZ-75 Compact (barrel / camber is removed from the gun). Getting the round out of the chamber is another matter, I have to use my thumbnail to pry the round loose to get it out. Using factory ammo. (WW white box, 115 gr. FMJ) the round falls in and out of the camber easily without any mechanical persuasion. OAL on the WW factory rounds average 1.160 - my handloads are averaging 1.100, but I'm aware that the bullet shape has a lot to do with the differences...maybe. I'm thinking that the sticking may be related to the bullet touching the lands but can't be certain. I've tried dropping un-loaded brass into the chamber and it falls in and out without difficulty....gets me back to thinking that the bullet is causing the friction. At any rate, I'm wondering if this is an issue that will cause feed / extract difficulties when I try to fire this round and should I set the bullet even deeper to see if I can eliminate the sticking? Or maybe none of this is the issue and I need to look elsewhere??

March 10, 2011, 05:28 PM	#2
Dave R Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Idaho Posts: 6,068	Could be that you are seating too long and bullets are hitting the lands. Try a dummy round (no powder or primer) shorter and see if that helps. Another thought--could be a belling/taper issue. If you over-bell, even when you taper you leave a bit of a bulge that can cause stickiness. Ask me how I know... Over-tapering can also cause it. Bell just enough to seat the bullet, and taper just enough to remove the bell. See if that helps. __________________ I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).

March 10, 2011, 09:23 PM	#7
peter_s Member Join Date: January 25, 2011 Posts: 46	FYI - the published Hornady data for the 124 grain XTP was developed at a 1.060" OAL. I load them at 1.070" with a slightly heavier than published charge and they shoot pretty well. I had a discussion on another thread about this issue before realizing I was in a rifle thread. Anyhow, one thing to keep in mind is that the round headspaces on the case mouth, but you are seating based on an overall length of the cartridge. The distance from the case mouth to the tip of the bullet is actually going to change if your brass is different lengths. If you only gave yourself 0.003" clearance, then a case that is 0.003" shorter than the one you used to develop the OAL of 1.090" is going to put your bullet back into the rifling. Leaving the argument aside as to whether the round "headspaces" off the extractor on very short cases, you might want to look at a tad more than 0.003" clearance. Last edited by peter_s; March 10, 2011 at 09:34 PM.

March 10, 2011, 05:41 PM	#3
Topload Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Florissant, MO. Posts: 36	I followed my seating operation with a light crimp. I think the Lee die that I'm using for the crimp is supposed to correct any bell/taper issue.....kind of directs me back to bullet depth. I'll give the dummy round approach a try and see if a deeper set will yield better results.

March 10, 2011, 05:49 PM	#4
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 386	.Load an inert dummy as recommended. Seat bullet out to 1.160". Remove just enough of the case mouth belling/flare so the round drops into the chamber. This COL may be a little long. Use marker or Sharpie and "paint" the bullet and the case mouth area of the case. Drop it in chamber and twist it around a little. There will be scrape marks on the dummy that show if the problem is too long a COL or the case mouth still having too much flare. Chack that the dummy round fits your magazine and, after getting the dummy to chamber freely in your barrel, reassemble the gun and load the dummy in the magazine. Verify that if feeds and chamber. If your COL is less than the manual's recommended minimum COL, be sure to drop the starting load and work up.

March 10, 2011, 06:01 PM	#5
Topload Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Florissant, MO. Posts: 36	Sounds like a solid approach - I'm heading back to the loading bench! Thanks noylj.

March 10, 2011, 08:17 PM	#6
Topload Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Florissant, MO. Posts: 36	Took a couple of attempts but got me to the result I needed. Using magic marker (as suggested) I marked the bullet & case, started bullet seat depth at 1.160 and kept increasing bullet seat depth until the stickiness disappeared. Case OAL ended up at 1.090 - the marks on the bullet from the lands, disappeared at about 1.093 so I moved the seat depth to 1.090 to make sure I wasn't going to have any problems with any other accumulated tolerances while loading remaining rounds. Really appreciate the info., thanks all for your insight.

March 10, 2011, 10:49 PM	#8
Topload Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Location: Florissant, MO. Posts: 36	Thanks Peter - good point. I didn't realize that the round headspaced off the case mouth. A .003" margin does seem a little tight - I'm well under max with the powder load so I imagine I could push the bullet a bit deeper just for the sake of getting a bit more distance from the lands. Appreciate your post.

March 13, 2011, 02:17 PM	#9
jrhtrader Junior Member Join Date: March 13, 2011 Location: Western Missouri Posts: 6	Might a LEE factory crimp die help?