A. Uberti 1873 .44 Black Powder with a .45 ACP cylinder OK to shoot?

patriotguns · September 23, 2009, 05:19 AM

I picked up a used but 95% looking 1873 Uberti last weekend. It says CAL .44 BLACK POWDER ONLY on the barrel. It came with a .45 ACP cylinder. The seller said he has shot it only with the ACP cylinder in it. I believe him as the .44 BP cylinder looks new and unfired. I was a little hesitant about the purchase taking his word and all regarding the safety of shooting a cartridge round such as .45 ACP in a gun marked black powder only. I have wanted a SAA style gun chambered in ACP for some time now. I took it out to shoot it and it was more accurate than I expected it to be but the firing pin is oval shaped and off center to accommodate the 44 cylinder so the primer didn't get hit hard enough on the first strike ever. The second strike however fired them all. I am looking for feed back from someone with experience with this set up before I continue with it. I am considering modifying the firing pin to a little more of a point so as to ignite the ACP primmer reliably.

P.S.
I have an 1873 Cattleman in 45LC too and the ACP cylinder will not fit into it. I know it would need to be fitted and timed. I really don't plan to ever shoot 44 BP in the Quickdraw (BP 44 gun); only ACP if it is safe to do so.

Thank you,
patriotguns

simonkenton · September 23, 2009, 05:47 AM

As a matter of fact I have one of those pistols, the Uberti Cattleman.
This is one beautiful pistol, really handles nice when you remove the ejection mechanism.

I am not an expert on the .45 acp cylinder, but I have to go along with the Bright Boys at Uberti that invented this gun, and say, Black Powder Only.

Deadguy · September 23, 2009, 05:37 PM

It would definitely be safe to shoot 45 acp rounds loaded with blackpowder and a lead bullet.

Oldfalguy · September 23, 2009, 07:09 PM

I understand that with the .45 acp conversion cylinder on black powder pistols the ammo do not have to be loaded with black powder- they can- but its not required-What is required is they be lead=unjacketed

I have several cylinders and would have chosen one in 45 acp as I have plenty of that and can use it in a lot of non-BP pistols I have- and would have except for the no FMJ part- around these parts lead acp is almost always remanufactured/reloaded

patriotguns · September 23, 2009, 09:48 PM

Thanks for the input so far...

I have as a matter of fact used both FMJ's and lead 230 grain rounds in it so far with no signs of trouble... maybe I'm lucky or just haven't had a problem yet.

The FMJ's were factory Winchester white box 100 ct from wally world and the lead ball ammo was personal reloads with 5.0grs of Winchester 231. It is a surprisingly accurate pistol; more so than its counterpart look alike my Catelman 1873 in 45LC. Next I am going to modify the firing pin to a thinner point so it will detonate the 45ACP primmers reliably. I may order another barrel that doesen't state CAL .44 BLACK BOWDER ONLY as I do not ever plan to shoot it as a black powder pistol.

For Sale: One never used .44 Cal Black powder A. Uberti cylinder.

patriotguns · September 23, 2009, 09:52 PM

Hey simonkenton- why remove the ejector assymbly? Is it to suit your asthetics prefferences or is there a functional value?

Jim Watson · September 23, 2009, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Next I am going to modify the firing pin to a thinner point so it will detonate the 45ACP primmers reliably.

I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that if you do that, it might amount to Manufacturing a Firearm in the same manner as installing a loading gate on a regular c&b conversion. This is legal for you to do for your own use under federal law, but you may not sell it as you do not have a manufacturer's license. State law may be more repressive on the matter.

Model-P · September 23, 2009, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Next I am going to modify the firing pin to a thinner point so it will detonate the 45ACP primmers reliably.

Quote:

I am not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that if you do that, it might amount to Manufacturing a Firearm in the same manner as installing a loading gate on a regular c&b conversion.

This sounds like pure nonsense to me. Since when was simple gunsmithing ever the same thing as "manufacturing a firearm"?

mykeal · September 24, 2009, 07:51 AM

The answer is really pretty simple. If you modify the gun so that it can ONLY fire modern cartridges, then it no longer comes under the definition of an antique or antique replica and is no longer exempt from the GCA of '68. If that is the case, then you can make the modification but you cannot sell the gun without an excise tax license.

I don't know if modifying the firing pin would constitute such a mod; I rather doubt it, but crazier things have happened. What's more important, in my opinion, and in opinions expressed by BATFE, is that installing the cartridge conversion cylinder is such a mod. That is, the gun with the cartridge conversion cylinder installed comes under the '68 GCA; the same gun with the percussion cylinder installed does not. The simple act of replacing the percussion cylinder with the cartridge cylinder constitutes manufacturing a firearm, which anyone can legally do. But you can't sell it that way. If you sell the gun, it must be with the percussion cylinder (or no cylinder) installed, and the cartridge cylinder must be sold separately. Silly, but true.

The bp percussion version of the 1873 single action Colt Peacemaker was designed expressly to shoot percussion cap ignition only; this was intended for European markets where cartridge handguns are prohibited. 'Simple gunsmithing' that is clearly intended to circumvent that design would be considered by many authorities to be an illegal act in those jurisdictions. Here, it would be a simple tax law issue.

Model-P · September 24, 2009, 11:46 AM

Ah! Thankyou.

simonkenton · September 24, 2009, 01:52 PM

That pistol is a cap and ball pistol.
I removed the ejection mechanism because it serves no purpose.
I have a Uberti loading stand that I load the cylinder with.
I like the way it handles with that weight removed.

Hawg · September 24, 2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

I removed the ejection mechanism because it serves no purpose.

Don't look right tho.

simonkenton · September 24, 2009, 05:09 PM

Y'all just don't understand custom gun work.
Look what I did to my 1860 Colt Army.

mykeal · September 24, 2009, 07:50 PM

Same answer.

Hawg · September 24, 2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Y'all just don't understand custom gun work.
Look what I did to my 1860 Colt Army.

I understand custom work but IMHO that ain't it. Not putting it down, if that's what floats your boat go for it.

simonkenton · September 24, 2009, 09:08 PM

My premier gunsmithing tool is the Sawzall.
I am a master, with the use of the metal cutting blade.

Y'all can send me your cap and ball pistols, I will fix them up for a reasonable fee.

Please note, in the case of the 1860 Colt Army, it is historically correct, many pistols were modified this way in the 19th century, for use as "belly guns."

Model-P · September 25, 2009, 12:00 AM

Quote:

My premier gunsmithing tool is the Sawzall.
I am a master, with the use of the metal cutting blade.

That is fantasic SawzAll work! As an ex-carpenter, I should know. I do hope you remembered to recrown the bore. A 5/8" bit works the best as a 1/2" bit tends to seize too easily.

Hawg · September 25, 2009, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Please note, in the case of the 1860 Colt Army, it is historically correct, many pistols were modified this way in the 19th century, for use as "belly guns."

That's very true, some were even completely without barrels. They just don't interest me.

breed · September 25, 2009, 05:31 PM

i have fired 500+ 45 acp fmj rounds with my converted 1873 uberti. with out any problems. i also have a pietta 1873 black powder. that i converted to shot 45lc. both gun's have run flawlessly. i only shoot cowboy loads in the 45lc pietta.

Mokoto · January 4, 2011, 05:29 PM

Hi Breed! I just want to know how did you made the 1873 Pietta C&B conversion to 45 lc? Did you just change the cylinder or need to do some smithing work? thanks.

breed · January 4, 2011, 10:05 PM

i put a 45lc in the pietta. and used a file on the firing pin.i just filed the pin a little on the round side so it only hits the primer. i put a 45acp in the uberti. ill post some pics when i get around to finishing fitting new grips on them. these are still bp guns. all i have to do is slide the bp cylinder back in... i do not advocate any one else trying this.

Don M · January 23, 2011, 04:30 AM

I have an 1873 Pietta bp pistol and would appreciate it if you could describe the 45lc (cylinder ?) you used (brand name), and perhaps a photo of the pistol including the filing work you did on the firing pin. I thank you for the news that this pistol can be converted to 45lc and back to bp. I have read your very interesting threads, and many have asked for more info, but it all stops there. This is a great 18873 replica.

pyrodon
[email protected]

Don M · January 23, 2011, 09:48 AM

I have an 1873 Pietta bp pistol and would appreciate it if you could describe the 45lc (cylinder ?) you used (brand name), and perhaps a photo of the pistol including the filing work you did on the firing pin. I thank you for the news that this pistol can be converted to 45lc and back to bp. I have read your very interesting threads, and many have asked for more info, but it all stops there. This is a great 18873 replica.

pyrodon
[email protected]
Don M is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message

mykeal · January 23, 2011, 05:03 PM

I think you're going to be waiting for a long time; I rather doubt that breed made the simple modification he claimed. I know of no conversion cylinder made with offset chambers such as would be required to line the cartridge primers up with the offset firing pin in the percussion version of the 1873 Colt. Simply filing off part of the offset pin will have no effect on moving the pin back to the battery centerline.

Don M · January 24, 2011, 01:21 AM

Thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense. I am wondering if he put a Colt 45lc cylinder inside his BP Pietta and Uberti, thus exposing the rounds; do you think the cylinder would fit? And like you say, how can an off-center firing pin hit the primer without changing the alignment, which would also misalign the shell lined up to the barrel?

September 23, 2009, 05:19 AM	#1
patriotguns Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2007 Posts: 4	A. Uberti 1873 .44 Black Powder with a .45 ACP cylinder OK to shoot? I picked up a used but 95% looking 1873 Uberti last weekend. It says CAL .44 BLACK POWDER ONLY on the barrel. It came with a .45 ACP cylinder. The seller said he has shot it only with the ACP cylinder in it. I believe him as the .44 BP cylinder looks new and unfired. I was a little hesitant about the purchase taking his word and all regarding the safety of shooting a cartridge round such as .45 ACP in a gun marked black powder only. I have wanted a SAA style gun chambered in ACP for some time now. I took it out to shoot it and it was more accurate than I expected it to be but the firing pin is oval shaped and off center to accommodate the 44 cylinder so the primer didn't get hit hard enough on the first strike ever. The second strike however fired them all. I am looking for feed back from someone with experience with this set up before I continue with it. I am considering modifying the firing pin to a little more of a point so as to ignite the ACP primmer reliably. P.S. I have an 1873 Cattleman in 45LC too and the ACP cylinder will not fit into it. I know it would need to be fitted and timed. I really don't plan to ever shoot 44 BP in the Quickdraw (BP 44 gun); only ACP if it is safe to do so. Thank you, patriotguns

September 23, 2009, 07:09 PM	#4
Oldfalguy Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 126	FMJ not OK I understand that with the .45 acp conversion cylinder on black powder pistols the ammo do not have to be loaded with black powder- they can- but its not required-What is required is they be lead=unjacketed I have several cylinders and would have chosen one in 45 acp as I have plenty of that and can use it in a lot of non-BP pistols I have- and would have except for the no FMJ part- around these parts lead acp is almost always remanufactured/reloaded

September 23, 2009, 09:48 PM	#5
patriotguns Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2007 Posts: 4	Whether it's recomended or not...? Thanks for the input so far... I have as a matter of fact used both FMJ's and lead 230 grain rounds in it so far with no signs of trouble... maybe I'm lucky or just haven't had a problem yet. The FMJ's were factory Winchester white box 100 ct from wally world and the lead ball ammo was personal reloads with 5.0grs of Winchester 231. It is a surprisingly accurate pistol; more so than its counterpart look alike my Catelman 1873 in 45LC. Next I am going to modify the firing pin to a thinner point so it will detonate the 45ACP primmers reliably. I may order another barrel that doesen't state CAL .44 BLACK BOWDER ONLY as I do not ever plan to shoot it as a black powder pistol. For Sale: One never used .44 Cal Black powder A. Uberti cylinder.

September 23, 2009, 09:52 PM	#6
patriotguns Junior Member Join Date: October 7, 2007 Posts: 4	Simonkenton? Hey simonkenton- why remove the ejector assymbly? Is it to suit your asthetics prefferences or is there a functional value?

September 24, 2009, 01:52 PM	#11
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	That pistol is a cap and ball pistol. I removed the ejection mechanism because it serves no purpose. I have a Uberti loading stand that I load the cylinder with. I like the way it handles with that weight removed. Last edited by simonkenton; September 24, 2009 at 02:34 PM.

September 23, 2009, 05:47 AM	#2
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	As a matter of fact I have one of those pistols, the Uberti Cattleman. This is one beautiful pistol, really handles nice when you remove the ejection mechanism. I am not an expert on the .45 acp cylinder, but I have to go along with the Bright Boys at Uberti that invented this gun, and say, Black Powder Only.

September 23, 2009, 05:37 PM	#3
Deadguy Member Join Date: April 17, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 93	It would definitely be safe to shoot 45 acp rounds loaded with blackpowder and a lead bullet.

September 24, 2009, 07:51 AM	#9
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	The answer is really pretty simple. If you modify the gun so that it can ONLY fire modern cartridges, then it no longer comes under the definition of an antique or antique replica and is no longer exempt from the GCA of '68. If that is the case, then you can make the modification but you cannot sell the gun without an excise tax license. I don't know if modifying the firing pin would constitute such a mod; I rather doubt it, but crazier things have happened. What's more important, in my opinion, and in opinions expressed by BATFE, is that installing the cartridge conversion cylinder is such a mod. That is, the gun with the cartridge conversion cylinder installed comes under the '68 GCA; the same gun with the percussion cylinder installed does not. The simple act of replacing the percussion cylinder with the cartridge cylinder constitutes manufacturing a firearm, which anyone can legally do. But you can't sell it that way. If you sell the gun, it must be with the percussion cylinder (or no cylinder) installed, and the cartridge cylinder must be sold separately. Silly, but true. The bp percussion version of the 1873 single action Colt Peacemaker was designed expressly to shoot percussion cap ignition only; this was intended for European markets where cartridge handguns are prohibited. 'Simple gunsmithing' that is clearly intended to circumvent that design would be considered by many authorities to be an illegal act in those jurisdictions. Here, it would be a simple tax law issue.

September 24, 2009, 11:46 AM	#10
Model-P Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2009 Posts: 727	Ah! Thankyou.

September 24, 2009, 05:09 PM	#13
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	Y'all just don't understand custom gun work. Look what I did to my 1860 Colt Army.

September 24, 2009, 07:50 PM	#14
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Same answer.

September 24, 2009, 09:08 PM	#16
simonkenton Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2008 Posts: 891	My premier gunsmithing tool is the Sawzall. I am a master, with the use of the metal cutting blade. Y'all can send me your cap and ball pistols, I will fix them up for a reasonable fee. Please note, in the case of the 1860 Colt Army, it is historically correct, many pistols were modified this way in the 19th century, for use as "belly guns."

September 25, 2009, 05:31 PM	#19
breed Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2009 Posts: 230	i have fired 500+ 45 acp fmj rounds with my converted 1873 uberti. with out any problems. i also have a pietta 1873 black powder. that i converted to shot 45lc. both gun's have run flawlessly. i only shoot cowboy loads in the 45lc pietta.

January 4, 2011, 05:29 PM	#20
Mokoto Junior Member Join Date: January 4, 2011 Location: Lisbon Posts: 4	1873 Pietta conversion to 45lc Hi Breed! I just want to know how did you made the 1873 Pietta C&B conversion to 45 lc? Did you just change the cylinder or need to do some smithing work? thanks.

January 4, 2011, 10:05 PM	#21
breed Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2009 Posts: 230	i put a 45lc in the pietta. and used a file on the firing pin.i just filed the pin a little on the round side so it only hits the primer. i put a 45acp in the uberti. ill post some pics when i get around to finishing fitting new grips on them. these are still bp guns. all i have to do is slide the bp cylinder back in... i do not advocate any one else trying this.

January 23, 2011, 04:30 AM	#22
Don M Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2011 Location: Burbank, Ca Posts: 3	Conversion to 45lc Pietta 1873 I have an 1873 Pietta bp pistol and would appreciate it if you could describe the 45lc (cylinder ?) you used (brand name), and perhaps a photo of the pistol including the filing work you did on the firing pin. I thank you for the news that this pistol can be converted to 45lc and back to bp. I have read your very interesting threads, and many have asked for more info, but it all stops there. This is a great 18873 replica. pyrodon [email protected]

January 23, 2011, 09:48 AM	#23
Don M Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2011 Location: Burbank, Ca Posts: 3	Pietta 1873 Conversion to 45lc I have an 1873 Pietta bp pistol and would appreciate it if you could describe the 45lc (cylinder ?) you used (brand name), and perhaps a photo of the pistol including the filing work you did on the firing pin. I thank you for the news that this pistol can be converted to 45lc and back to bp. I have read your very interesting threads, and many have asked for more info, but it all stops there. This is a great 18873 replica. pyrodon [email protected] Don M is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message

January 23, 2011, 05:03 PM	#24
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	I think you're going to be waiting for a long time; I rather doubt that breed made the simple modification he claimed. I know of no conversion cylinder made with offset chambers such as would be required to line the cartridge primers up with the offset firing pin in the percussion version of the 1873 Colt. Simply filing off part of the offset pin will have no effect on moving the pin back to the battery centerline.

January 24, 2011, 01:21 AM	#25
Don M Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2011 Location: Burbank, Ca Posts: 3	Pietta 1873 Conversion to 45lc Thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense. I am wondering if he put a Colt 45lc cylinder inside his BP Pietta and Uberti, thus exposing the rounds; do you think the cylinder would fit? And like you say, how can an off-center firing pin hit the primer without changing the alignment, which would also misalign the shell lined up to the barrel?