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Old January 10, 2011, 08:32 PM   #51
a1abdj
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I suppose you're right. They probably even have a receptionist that answers calls.

Well if you find that safe with a UL rating that's using ceramics as it's primary insulation, please let me know. I have looked myself, asked everybody I know in the business (including manufacturers), and even looked over seas at foreign manufacturers. I can't find one.

I think a gun safe getting a UL fire rating would be good for business. It would be worth whatever it cost, as there is currently nothing like it on the market.
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Old January 10, 2011, 08:47 PM   #52
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I was hoping to post these photos earlier, but I had trouble tracking them down. This was just a little something, non scientific, that I did a while back.

People usually have a tough time understanding what really happens inside of a safe during a fire. What I did was place a few common items on a cookie sheet, and placed then in an oven at 350 degrees for a half hour.

Here are the items before:



Here are the items after:










You will notice that most of the items weren't really destroyed. The CDs were warped and would no longer play. The photos had turned very dark, with the Polaroid actually being destroyed. The paper did OK, but you may notice in the after photos that it started to darken.

If you compare these photos to others where "shadows" are claimed to be causing the color distortion, you can draw your own conclusions.

I'm not posting these photos to say that this type of damage is bad. It should be expected, as this is what most fire rated safes are designed to do. The thought behind a fire rated safe is to keep paper documents in readable condition. Some damage is to be expected.
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Old January 10, 2011, 09:30 PM   #53
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Quote:
If you compare these photos to others where "shadows" are claimed to be causing the color distortion, you can draw your own conclusions.
Lol, It is what we say it is Franky. No damage. Perfect condition. Stan (the owner of the safe) as well as a few firemen from that blaze can testify to that. Indeed, I have more names and numbers for you, and anyone else who wants them. We have nothing to hide, and we are more than willing to prove it's the truth. It's ok thou, keep stating otherwise. We feel, your not helping yourself out by doing so.


Quote:
I also find it odd that he won't tell you what products have their labels.
Actually, he gave me a list of safe mfg names with UL Fire Class ratings on them, but couldn't say who used what, or what safe model was tested with the ceramic insulator. I would have needed to call the manufacturers and hope they tell me. Again, your more than welcome to call him. I'm sure he would give you the same list. While your at it, call everyone on the list an let me know what UL rated fire safe uses ceramic, now that we know there is one (or maybe more) out there.




It's time for me to depart this forum. Again, anyone here who has any questions about Sturdy Safes, just ask us direct. You guys are what keep us going!

Last edited by Sturdy Gun Safe, Mfg; January 10, 2011 at 09:51 PM.
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Old January 10, 2011, 09:40 PM   #54
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Ad hominem attacks does not an appealing manufacturer make.
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Old January 10, 2011, 10:03 PM   #55
a1abdj
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Actually, he gave me a list of safe mfg names with UL Fire Class ratings on them, but couldn't say who used what, or what safe model was tested with the ceramic insulator. I would have needed to call the manufacturers and hope they tell me. Again, your more than welcome to call him. I'm sure he would give you the same list. While your at it, call everyone on the list an let me know what UL rated fire safe uses ceramic, now that we know there is one (or maybe more) out there.
He couldn't say because he didn't know, or he couldn't say because it's some sort of secret? It's not really a secret, as anybody who can pull the back panel off of a safe's door can see what's inside.

I've never seen one, nobody I've ever talked to has seen one, and nobody can show me one.

Since you and Adirondack seem to be the only two making the claims of the superiority of ceramic insulations, I would assume that you would have examples to hold out.

Remember, we are looking for safes with a UL fire tag that use ceramics as their sole primary insulation.

I suppose I should also add that I sell safes that use ceramics for their insulation as well. None of them are UL rated.
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Old January 10, 2011, 10:29 PM   #56
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Not sure what you meant by that KChen986 but Sturdy Gun Safe is one of the best companies I've ever dealt with both professionally and personally. And, they have every right to defend themselves; I have actually been amazed at their patience.

Thank you for providing the contact info for the expert at UL Alyssa. I guess I'm a little embarrassed because that was the kind of expert I was referring to back on post #17 but didn't take the initiative.
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Old January 10, 2011, 10:46 PM   #57
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I actually contacted Frank about purchasing a safe, but he recommended I go local. He has also frequently participated in multiple gun boards, offering advice and knowledge about safes. It's funny, because I often see Sturdy only when they want to defend their reputation, or extoll how great their safes are.

I'm sure Sturdy makes a great safe, and I'm sure they're a good company. But Amsec v. Sturdy and Ceramic v. Wool gets pretty old.
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Old January 10, 2011, 10:48 PM   #58
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He couldn't say because he didn't know, or he couldn't say because it's some sort of secret? It's not really a secret, as anybody who can pull the back panel off of a safe's door can see what's inside.

I've never seen one, nobody I've ever talked to has seen one, and nobody can show me one.

Since you and Adirondack seem to be the only two making the claims of the superiority of ceramic insulations, I would assume that you would have examples to hold out.

Remember, we are looking for safes with a UL fire tag that use ceramics as their sole primary insulation.

I suppose I should also add that I sell safes that use ceramics for their insulation as well. None of them are UL rated.
Alyssa gave you the number of the expert at UL, call the guy and hear what he has to say, you might learn something new. And, a manufacturer isn't going to want you or any competitor to know how they can achieve a UL fire rating and since UL is paid by their customers and likely have had to sign a confidentiality agreement, they are not permitted to share the customer specific information.
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Old January 10, 2011, 11:00 PM   #59
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Alyssa gave you the number of the expert at UL, call the guy and hear what he has to say, you might learn something new.
What exactly am I going to learn? The expert, that you're hanging your hat on, can't give us an example either.

Quote:
And, a manufacturer isn't going to want you or any competitor to know how they can achieve a UL fire rating
The few companies using ceramic wool (mostly gun safe manufacturers) are bragging about it, openly, on their websites.

I know what manufacturers use, because I can see it with my own two eyes. I may not know the exact ingredients, but I can clearly see the difference between cast and ceramic wool. I have never seen, nor have any of the other professionals that I know, a UL listed safe using ceramic wool as its primary insulation.

Quote:
and since UL is paid by their customers and likely have had to sign a confidentiality agreement, they are not permitted to share the customer specific information so that shouldn't be a surprise.
I get it. All of the companies using cast insulations are public knowledge. I can list them all here if you would like. All of the companies using ceramic insulations are top secret. Nobody knows, and nobody will ever say, except the gun safe manufacturers (that don't have UL fire ratings).
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Old January 12, 2011, 03:34 PM   #60
a1abdj
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I'm glad I invested 5 minutes in order to be educated.

I called Mr. Koepke, who was nice enough to speak with me for a few minutes.

When asked if a safe existed, that had a UL fire rating, which used solely ceramic wool as its insulation, his reply was "I can not answer that question one way or another".

Even when offered the opportunity to answer that question yes, or no, without mentioning any names, he repeated that they were under contractual obligation not to disclose any material used in any safe submitted to them for testing, which includes materials not used.

Seems to me like they have a tight lip policy. I wonder why he blabbed to other callers, and not to myself.
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Old January 12, 2011, 04:00 PM   #61
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Quote:
Seems to me like they have a tight lip policy. I wonder why he blabbed to other callers, and not to myself.
Maybe Alyssa has a nicer voice than you
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