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Old November 8, 2010, 05:53 PM   #26
markj
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So do you just stop shooting because you don't think you are hitting?
No, read this carefully, you slow down and get ahold of your senses and take a better aim. Goal is to hit the target not try to scare it off with a load of gunfire, this isnt a marine outing.

Geez is that too hard to understand? Shooting till empty is foolish IMHO.

An empty gun is a rock.

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And I am sure he would think you a ninny if you stopped trying to put rounds on target if the bad guy was still a threat to you.
Not a chance. If he was alive I am sure he would have a lot to say about the folks on this here forum. He did survive many shootings, I will always take his advise over anothers. I listen to my friends that served in Nam, we get together and play our games, but it is that. Just games, but they do help in getting the gun out of the holster and on target as soon as possible.

I explained my method of training that was taught to me. Please dont try to make this a foolish thing as other threads have gone. I have faced a man with a gun, I am alive. And you sir?
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Old November 8, 2010, 07:26 PM   #27
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markj
Best is to maintain mind control, dont panic, aim well and hit the target. Is what I was taught by a shooter that had exp shooting people.
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No, read this carefully, you slow down and get ahold of your senses and take a better aim.
You seem to be missing the point. In the real-life shooting that inspired this discussion, the officer involved fired 11 shots in under 2 seconds. 10 of those 11 shots hit the target.

The point I was trying to emphasize is that a skilled shooter can put rounds on target accuirately faster than his brain can recognize whether those rounds have been effective. The result is that while maybe 1 or 2 rounds were all that was necessary to stop the threat, the shooter might easily fire 5 or more rounds before he recognizes that the threat has been stopped.

To the degree you are addressing this issue, I am interested in what you have to say; but I don't understand how your observations in this thread so far relate to that.

To the degree you are discussing some tangential issue raised by another post in this thread, I would appreciate it if you would start a new thread or PM to discuss that.
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Old November 9, 2010, 03:50 PM   #28
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I was going off this:then what I posted was taken as, well I just dont know what.

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This leads to two schools of thought:

1. Shoot X number of rounds and assess
2. Shoot until the threat goes away
I would go with number 1. Simple and to the point.
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Old November 10, 2010, 08:04 AM   #29
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sometimes we get way too involved with minutia. Analyzing things to death in advance...
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Old November 10, 2010, 09:36 AM   #30
Bartholomew Roberts
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sometimes we get way too involved with minutia. Analyzing things to death in advance...
True; people tend to want to control all the variables they can control in a high-risk situation.

This struck me as a good discussion because it makes me rethink how I evaluate my ammo needs. If I evaluate my ammo needs based on how many rounds are necessary to stop the threat, I will probably come up with a smaller number than if I evaluate my ammo needs based on how many rounds I am likely to shoot before I realize the threat has been stopped.

It also suggests that some common tactics like "shoot until the threat goes away" need to be modified if you are going to carry a pistol with limited onboard ammo and no reload.
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Old November 10, 2010, 12:23 PM   #31
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I feel as though the shooting and assessing happens simultaneously.

I'll make a sports analogy. Coming down the court, during the play, a basketball player is in soft, broad focus. Aware of where the ball is, where the basket is, where they are, and what their defender is doing. Once they get the ball and make their move, that focus becomes hard-fixed on the center of the rim when they pull up and release the shot. Similarly, during the gunfight, being hard focused on the front sight or soft focused on the field all the time won't work, you have to shift quickly in order to be fully aware and able to act/react.

For example, it's one thing to say "get behind cover." Well, once you're confronted with the prospect of being in a gunfight, where is your cover? You have to switch from hard focus on the threat (where you may or may not already have your gun out, may or may not have already expended ammo), to soft focus to scan and find the best available cover option. While at the same time trying to pick up additional threats that may present. Throw in a reloading cycle, and you're somewhere in the middle (depending on how well you've trained your reload technique).

Doesn't even consider any injuries you have any suffered along the way, from being punched, kicked, thrown, bludgeoned, stabbed, shot, tripping/falling, and your own weapon's muzzle blast, that could affect your focus and your judgement.

Good argument for the New York reload, IMO.
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Old November 11, 2010, 03:03 PM   #32
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It also suggests that some common tactics like "shoot until the threat goes away" need to be modified if you are going to carry a pistol with limited onboard ammo and no reload.
Thats what I am saying.

One size just dont fit all.
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Old November 16, 2010, 03:52 AM   #33
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I think the point about shooting faster than your ability to process what is happening is a valid point. It takes no time at all to shoot 5 or more rounds. You might be able to fire faster than the time it takes the suspect to react to being hit, if being hit in the torso. In other words, the suspect might be hit good and out of the fight but still standing straight up while the rapid fire on your part continues. I think firing until the suspect is no longer perceived as a threat will be the default action for most of us. In other words, we won't have any say in the matter. Our automatic responses will kick in and we will fire until the threat goes down or until we run out of ammo and have to take whatever steps needed to fix this problem. For some who have trained routinely to fire a certain amount of rounds and assess, this might occurr also but maybe at their own peril. I come out on the side of firing until you no longer perceive the threat and that is why I think you change up the number of rounds you fire at a target during training, whether its two rounds or eight rounds, or whatever. You never know what that number will be for real so why not switch it up all the time. Yes, available ammo is a concern but that is a known problem and there are ways to deal with it before hand, most obvious is to have a reload (a New York reload if you prefer) and be trained up on getting the gun recharged quickly.
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Old November 16, 2010, 09:17 AM   #34
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You know markj, Mark Wilson conserved his ammo and stopped firing, ostensibly to assess his shooting. It was a great opportunity for the gunman to turn and take a bead on Wilson and promptly shot Wilson. Wilson died having conserved most of the ammo in his gun. He stopped shooting a viable threat and it cost him his life.

...but the important thing is that he didn't run out of ammo because running out of ammo is bad and may look bad in court....only he doesn't have to worry about looking bad or going to court because the bad guy killed him.
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Old November 16, 2010, 09:34 AM   #35
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One can worry about conserving ammo...

... or one can carry more, in the form of spare magazines, a second gun, etc.

Assuming one doesn't live in a state which limits CCW to a single handgun, in which case we're back to spare mags, speed strips, or speedloaders.

Personally, I prefer to have more ammo, and just not worry about it so much.
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Old November 16, 2010, 04:31 PM   #36
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You know markj, Mark Wilson conserved his ammo and stopped firing
And others have died reloading..... I was taught one way and I guess I will stay with what I know.

This can be debated for eternity. Do what makes you feel good.

I hunt, shooting a living thing to kill it isnt a hard thing for me, I dont ever want to be in a situation where I have to train a weapon on a human tho. But If I ever have to I am sure of my abilities, confidant. Now why would someone wish to upset that?
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Old November 16, 2010, 06:07 PM   #37
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Geez is that too hard to understand? Shooting till empty is foolish IMHO
I also understand that it's foolish to quit shooting until the threat is neutralized.

And I understand that, if what you're doing isn't working, slowing down and controlling your aim is a good thing --if one has the composier to do that under stress.

There's more to the Mark Wilson incident than him just stopping his shooting. His shots were on target. Bad guy was wearing a vest.
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Old November 18, 2010, 03:26 PM   #38
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I wonder if Col. Boyd carried a concealed handgun?

Would've been great to hear his take on this discussion.
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Old November 21, 2010, 06:08 AM   #39
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If you do a Mozambique shooting format of 2 to the chest and 1 to the head you generally do not have to fire more than 3 rounds into most bad guys. Of course you could do a modified/emergency Mozambique where you put 1 round in the chest and 1 round into the bad guy's head. But unless you're using a rifle, then that means that the bad guys have to be pretty darn close to you if you're using a pistol for the accurate head shot to stop them. The key thing is shooting to stop the bad guys and keep yourself safe from harm. And that boils down to accuracy which involves a good amount of practice at the range.
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Old November 23, 2010, 03:31 PM   #40
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When I hear of things like Mozambique drills I think of stationary paper targets being faced by shooters that are waiting for the beep or the shoot command of an instructor.

I was taught that in real life, targets move up/down/sideways, and drills are of limited benefit.

Not that drills are of no benefit, I would imagine they are, but it's amazing how large of a target that one can miss under stress. A moving paper plate is a pretty small target when under stress, with a pistol, at 7 yards.
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Old November 25, 2010, 09:13 PM   #41
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When I hear of things like Mozambique drills I think of stationary paper targets being faced by shooters that are waiting for the beep or the shoot command of an instructor.
Agreed. I was thinking the same thing when I read the two to the chest, one to the head routine. I've shot it thousands of times. Works great on the flat range during daylight at seven yards with a target that doesn't move or shoot back. I can't really even visualize it in a real deal since I'll be moving, he will be moving, along with the many other possibilities not found on a typical range.
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Old November 26, 2010, 03:52 PM   #42
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Couple random thoughts

M.O.V.E.: Motionless Operators Ventilate Easily. moving towards cover is usually best, unless you've got the zig-zag sprint down pat.

if you have to empty all rounds to stop an adversary you may need to re-assess your weapon performance / capacity, or the dude has armor on, in which case you have head or pocket shots.

personal preference? three rounds; then move if possible if not already behind cover.

Eli W.

P.S. somone may have brought these up already but i got on the thread late and am too lazy (er, busy with big important things..?) to read the whole thing in detail.
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Old December 26, 2010, 03:43 PM   #43
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it's always been my intention to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. One round? Fine. All the cartridges in the magazine? Fine. Reload and shoot some more? What ever it takes.
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Old December 26, 2010, 06:45 PM   #44
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it's always been my intention to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. One round? Fine. All the cartridges in the magazine? Fine. Reload and shoot some more? What ever it takes.
Right, so what are people going to conserve ammo for if the threat still exists?
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Old December 26, 2010, 07:01 PM   #45
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by NormOps
P.S. somone may have brought these up already but i got on the thread late and am too lazy (er, busy with big important things..?) to read the whole thing in detail.
Why did you even bother to respond if you weren't going to take the time to understand the point of the original post or read any of the replies in the thread?
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Old December 27, 2010, 08:08 PM   #46
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For those of you who prefer not to fire pairs at your threat, you may want to look into the difference between Temp and permanent wound cavity's produced by a single impact versus two impacts in close proximity. That being said, the pair is not the cure-all for a threat! Shoot, Move, Communicate.

Speed reload, done on his time when weapon is dry!
Tactical reload, done during a lull in the fight!

Yes, I should keep a rough idea of the rounds in my gun, but in a multiple threat scenario that may not happen.

Do I perform 1 or 2?

Whatever it takes to go back home! Every threat gets two, break your eyes off the sights, find the head box, if still a threat, fire another, and if at anytime another threat persents itself it will recieve the same treatment. I am not sure if that falls into one or both but that is what I am trained to do and though I have not used it in a SD scenario it works good far away lands!
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Old December 27, 2010, 08:29 PM   #47
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I'm reminded of one of the axioms of combat.

No plan survives the first contact, intact.
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