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Old December 17, 2010, 02:59 PM   #26
LordTio3
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The following is a story I shared much earlier this year.

Quote:
This situation happened to me last year.

Let me give you some orientation. There is a Kroger right near where I live. It's one of the larger ones. Just in front and off to the left of the Kroger contained in the same parking lot-system is their Kroger Gas Station. Just off to the left of this is a drive-through Chase ATM on the same tarmac.

I needed to get some cash one evening, so I drove out to the ATM and waited for the car in front of me to finish. While I was waiting, I saw two "gentlemen" loitering behind the gas station out of the light of the tarmac. I pulled up and started my transaction. I was waiting for the cash to dispense when I saw the two gentlemen making a B-line for my car at a brisk walk while looking around them (about 50 feet away); the standard (is anyone going to see this...) motion. I pulled my weapon to my lap (I seat carry when I'm alone) and grabbed my cash just as it dispensed and hit the gas when they were about 20 feet from me. I looked back and saw them both make the (Aww man!) big arms motion. I re-holstered my weapon and put it IWB while I pulled into Kroger and did my shopping.

After shopping I realized that I did in fact need gas. I drove on over to the Kroger gas station and got out to fill up. I swiped my card and began looking around now on the well-lit tarmac. I didn't see anyone but the teller in the booth. I start to fill up and then here they come from around the back of the building- the two guys (~80feet).
"Hey man let us holla at-chou..." These guys really mean no good, and I know it. I honestly know that their intent was to rob me right at the ATM before, and they know that I probably still have cash on me.
I crossed in front of the teller booth (must pay at the booth after hours), made serious eye contact with the 18yo teller and said loudly "Call the police." I didn't know quite what we would need them for just yet, but in my head, I know they are going to need to be called.

I turned toward these two guys (~35-40ft) and tucked my shirttail behind my Glock 19 at 4 o'clock, and kept my hand there. I then gave both of them a hard dose of eye contact and they stopped moving. I said, "The cops are on their way. And I'd be running if I were you."
They looked at each other for a few seconds then turned around and jogged to their POS car at the back of the lot, got in and sped off. I told the teller that they were gone and he told me, "I really thought those guys were going to rob me earlier."
Cops came and talked and promised to make a few more sweeps by there the next couple of nights.
I drove the 3 blocks home and as soon as I walked in the door I could feel my heart pounding in my hot hears and I don't think I stopped sweating for about an hour.

I'm pretty proud of our LEO community where I live. They're some of the kind that really like to help out the average Joe, and they seem to support gun rights. I really think that being armed gave me the confidence to stop a mugging, robbery, and God knows what else. I didn't even have to pull my weapon, but just the knowledge that I had it gave me what I needed in order to act.

For the record, my personal perscription for dealing with midnight punks is the police on the phone and a gun on the belt. This one in particular turned out pretty well for everyone, bad guys included. And at the end of the day, I think that's the goal. No crimes committed and everyone in their beds.

~LT
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Old December 17, 2010, 03:05 PM   #27
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTio3
However, I must offer that advising someone to take a video of a self-defense encounter sounds like advice from someone who has never been in a self-defense encounter. If you are fighting for your life or limb, you need both your feet, all ten fingers, both arms, every wit you can muster, and probably a weapon. Somehow pulling out my cell-phone, waiting for my camera app to load and then attempting to take a discernible video of the event while fighting for my life doesn't exactly, in my mind, rate anywhere close to "Am I going to have to kill this guy?" or "Where's the best cover, and how do I get away?"

Now, I can hope against all hope that a bystander pulls out their phone and tapes it; as I am not going to be unjustified in displaying my weapon anyway. But that's about where my thoughts on surveillance end when I'm confronted by a man that wants my life.
Well said, LT. It would seem readily obvious that any legitimate SD situation is pretty well by definition going to preclude the actual defender from video taping the incident.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that any situation wherein the "defender" is able to video tape the incident is virtually certain to NOT be a legitimate deadly force encounter.
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Old December 17, 2010, 03:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Well the objected to passage by 556Isdeadly might be viewed as constructive by some, so relax. I looked it up and in California one is required, for the most part, to take a beat down without drawing a weapon (escalation of force).
The reason I posted the quote that I did was because it was the least offensive. And if you look at the post it was excerpted from, you'll find it heavily edited by the moderators, so please don't assume any lack of "relaxing" to be a brash act, as there was previously more to the story that is now unobservable, and for good reason.

Quote:
I can see where evaluation of who, or whom, you are being assaulted by might be very important in decidng upon ones actions ... at least here in California. This I suspect would very by county that the incident occured in. A jury in Marlin County I suspect would view any altercation different from a jury in, say, Alpine County. I also suspect the Officers in Alpine County have a different mindset than those in LA County. 556Isdeadly's experiences might be different from yours, and might believe his opinion is valid.
And while it IS important to take into consideration the environmental and social context of your location when deciding how to act, it is foolish and dangerous to advise anyone to just "sit down and take it". At what point do the terms of that advise end? When he beats you to the point that you are incoherent and can't physically run away? Do you expect him to stop at that point? What if he produces a weapon that you NOW can't defend yourself against?

Yes, we must be considerate of our environment, but for God's sake, don't be afraid to defend you life because it has a small probability of costing you some money somewhere down the line. How much is your life worth to you? I'll spend a few thousand in court if it buys me an extra 40 or 50 years. People pay more for knee-replacement surgery.


Quote:
I hope being 'Real' is more insiteful, and more important in these discussions, than being 'Politically correct'.
No one is making the point of being 'Politically correct' over having sound situational judgement. Just don't be stupid and pull a gun when the 4'11" guy calls you an a-hole after you bump into him on the sidewalk. If you are truly and rightfully afraid for your life or safety, then use your judgement and do what's justified. That's all we are saying.

~LT
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Old December 17, 2010, 03:29 PM   #29
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You know, I think this article from Marc MacYoung might be helpful here:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pride.html

And maybe this one, too:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com...eexplained.htm

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Old December 17, 2010, 03:39 PM   #30
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That "Pride" article is fantastic.
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Old December 17, 2010, 03:57 PM   #31
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I'd rather get beat down than rot in Jail 9 months just waiting for a trial.

Let me explain the system again ... You don't just go home after 48 hours when a violent crime has been charged. You rot in Jail for 9 months or pay 5-10,000$ bond. Knee surgery has payment plans, Jails have cells.
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Old December 17, 2010, 04:23 PM   #32
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Great articles pax, thanks for sharing those.
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Old December 17, 2010, 04:49 PM   #33
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Back to the OP.

In the second story about the ex-boy friend.
Your sister could have called the police and explained the situation. In many cases they will send an officer to supervise the situation when there is a contentious break up and one of the people is collecting their possessions.

As to what actually happened, imho you and your dad should have called a cop instead of a cab. With all due respect to your dad, he didn't act as a responsible citizen in this case.

If possible, it is usually better to retreat.
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Old December 17, 2010, 07:35 PM   #34
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Interfering in other people's situations with a gun has a weird way of potentially turning into your worst nightmare.

I was living in a fancy apartment complex in Sacramento when I separated from my first wife. I was having dinner with my friend who was the apartment manager when some yelling and screaming out in front of my door was going on. We looked out the sliding glass door and there was a black guy beating the crap out of a cute young girl that lived upstairs (he was her boyfriend).

My friend was telling me the guy was in a gang hierchy and that I should just leave it be. I told him bull when he hit her on the cheekbone with a big 9mm and to call 911 and tell them there is a possible shooting incident in progress. As I opened the door with a customized Randall .45 extended toward the guys head he turned his head briefly and told me to mind my mo'fo' bidniss, then turned his back on me.

I told him he needed to know that he was going to take a couple of .45 hollowpoints to the head if he didn't do exactly what I told him to. He said "aw man, I toad ya ta mind your own bidniss". I told him he had one second to drop his gun and he whined that it was an $800 gun, I said lean over and put it down easy then, just put it down NOW and don't move stupid.

Did I mention that there were twenty or thirty witnesses? There were people on doorsteps and looking over balconies everywhere. He put the gun down and I told him to step ten feet away and sit down with his back to me. I told my friend to get the gun and empty it. We could hear sirens coming in the distance which really had this guy agitated, he had given up threatening me. I told him his beef wasn't with me, it was between his girlfriend and him and asked him if he was cool with me if I let him leave. He told me heck yeah man, I told him "one other thing, if I see you again I'm going to figure you're after me and I'll be likely to shoot, you cool with that, you'll stay away entirely?" He said "yeah man we cool, I owe ya one".

Paramedics got there first and were working on the girl when the cops arrived so I had one cop addressing me since I answered to being an involved party, the others talking to other witnesses and the girl. My story seemed to be received well except for letting the guy have his gun back and being allowed to leave. I said that they had a beat up girl, a known and identified suspect by her account, and I didn't want the resulting gang related shootings that would be inevitable if I got involved further, that the police would not be able to protect me. I told them there was a 90% chance the girl wouldn't press charges and I'd have a homicidal gang member out for blood. The cop laughed and said you're probably right there.

My cops that were talking to my friend and I were on looser friendly type terms as the incident seemed to be okay by them to that point. They asked if I knew what I was in for and I said "yep, but I think I headed it off" and told them about my warning to the guy if I saw him again. I then got a lengthy lecture on the inadvisability of shooting the guy later, they all proceeded to tell me what to make sure was involved for it to be okay (this was the mid to late 80's) cops won't tell you today what they were telling me to do then. I was told that the case could be argued that I should have shot the guy while he was pistol whipping a girl, that that was as righteous as it gets when he went to turn to me with a gun in his hand. They did leave it as a documented fact that my life was probably going to be in danger to help me if it came to a shooting later. I tried to assure them it wasn't really my life they needed to worry about, that it was unlikely that I'd be caught with my guard down.

We were left to go back to dinner with a "be careful and don't let yourself get caught unaware, these guys are no joke".

Brandi dropped all charges, there's a surprise huh? I never had any problems with the guy, I thought I'd be able to trust him owing me one.
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Old December 17, 2010, 07:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
I'd rather get beat down than rot in Jail 9 months just waiting for a trial.

Let me explain the system again ... You don't just go home after 48 hours when a violent crime has been charged. You rot in Jail for 9 months or pay 5-10,000$ bond. Knee surgery has payment plans, Jails have cells.
A beat down is nothing to take lightly, especially if a single person is beaten by someone significantly larger or multiple people. The results of a beating can very easily cross from bumps, bruises, and a few stitches to permanent disability or death.

Consider that a large man can fairly easily break the neck of a slenderly-built woman by slapping her across the face. To make a blanket statement that it is better to take a beating rather than face possible legal consequences is poor advice. I'd rather sit in a jail cell than permanently lose my ability to walk, my eyesight, or my life.
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Old December 17, 2010, 08:02 PM   #36
xMINORxTHREATx
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In my second situation, with my sisters boyfriend, I did call the cops, and they said unless there was actual acts of violence happening, just threats and being drunk and belligerent wasn't enough for them to worry about. We were also advised over the phone by dispatch that if he didn't want to leave, we would have to go through a formal eviction, and that HE had to pack. We couldn't force him to leave and get his stuff later.


I chose the second one to be self defense? He threw a broken beer bottle at my family member, PUNCHED ME IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD, AND CUT ME WITH A PIECE OF GLASS. Yeah, I MADE him do all that. Ok......


Woodguru, my situation and yours are very similar, so I guess we are both in the wrong for wanting to keep someone from getting the proverbial snot beat out of them. I'm sure if one of the forum members that are saying this were to be getting a boot to the face and we helped them, they wouldn't have anything to say.



I made this thread to share stories, maybe raise awareness of what might happen in public. NOT for people to rag each other about how they reacted. Reactions in high adrenaline situations are not predictable.

In both situations I had LEO's tell me what I did was acceptable given the circumstances. I'm going to take their word for it.
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Old December 17, 2010, 11:37 PM   #37
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The gun did save me from serious injury, I honestly can tell you it saved me. However, the prison system scares me more than injury.

My cell had 13 guys, 1 toilet, I had to sleep on concrete because there were no beds left, I had little water to stay hydrated also. I'm a diplomat type , Everyone liked me, no problems with inmates at all, just horrid living conditions.

I've been through bootcamp, and other ridiculous things, like Customs, I've traveled abroad, I've been around guys. Let me tell you I had never experienced these animal conditions.
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Old December 17, 2010, 11:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
I chose the second one to be self defense? He threw a broken beer bottle at my family member, PUNCHED ME IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD, AND CUT ME WITH A PIECE OF GLASS. Yeah, I MADE him do all that. Ok......
Emphasis mine.

In what world did anyone say that "you made him do it"?

Did you post just to get some positive affirmation?

First, once he threw something, it was past time to call the cops.

Second, once he threw something, it was time to retreat.

I'm sorry that you were unable to get the police to supervise the situation. I have arranged it on a couple occasions without trouble, so I expected that the same was true for others.

I have dealt with violent drunks on many occasions and I repeat, if possible retreat is your best option.
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Old December 18, 2010, 01:44 AM   #39
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Quoting King Edwards post:


the second situation was only a self defense situation because you chose it to be.


Thats what I was referring to, Buzzcock.

I got hit in the back of the head when I was trying to break up the fight to begin with.


It has nothing to do with me having a gun in my hand. Some one mentioned that earlier. I believe the exact words were that I'm "pretty macho with a pistol in my hands." Which is complete bull sh*t. Before you pass judgement on someone, know them. If it wasn't for the pistol, I probably would have pounded the living crap out of the guy. Ironically enough, me having a pistol saved him a world of hurt.
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Old December 18, 2010, 01:51 AM   #40
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I was hoping that this thread was going to be more along the lines of what the OP wanted to know, (Real Self Defense Situations) rather than who's gunbelt was longer. Just an observation.
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Old December 18, 2010, 01:57 AM   #41
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So far, out of two pages, four posts are on topic. Awesome.
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Old December 18, 2010, 02:22 AM   #42
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xMINORxTHREATx

I might comment that you also should read what PAX put up

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pride.html

You also are allowing what posters put up, against you

"your pride, ego, fear of humiliation, fear of loss of social status, insecurities and countless other 'monkey brain' issues will turn you into part of the problem.

Works on forums also...

Just saying
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Old December 18, 2010, 08:50 AM   #43
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Toro!
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Old December 18, 2010, 10:47 AM   #44
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Two times I've had to draw outside of the military.One was at an ATM where you had to park and walk up to it.Was standing waiting for it to take my card when a old POS station wagon pulled up and four wanna be's got out ,two walked to the left,two to the right toward me.I made eye contact and pulled my Glock 21 out and had it down to my side.One whistled to the others and they got back in.They followed me right up to the local police station before they took off,went in and gave the license plate number to the desk Sargent.
Second time was at a body building show in Columbus,Oh and as my me and wife wife walked out three individuals followed us.A block away i told her to get ready,they were going to rob us.She said i was paranoid, but i said they had no bags in their hands.Everyone coming out of the show had bags of free swag and purchases,i don't think they went in, they were standing at the front doors just watching.They followed us as we crossed over the street to our parking garage,when they started to follow us in i drew my Browning HP and once again kept it down at my side.When they saw that they stopped and acted like they were lost,started looking at the street signs,and kept on walking.They looked back once and then took off down a side street .
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Old December 18, 2010, 12:18 PM   #45
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Luckily I've never had someone try to rob me while I was carrying. I have been robbed at gun point twice, once in Phoenix, once in Cincinnati, both times I was under the legal carry age. I suppose moving out of the city and into a rural area should be high on my agenda at this point, but I really like living in the city. So I guess I have to put up with it. haha

In your situation m.p.driver, NOT trying to bash how you reacted, but wouldn't that be considered brandishing, legally? I know it depends on your state laws and all but in general?
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Old December 18, 2010, 12:49 PM   #46
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Quote:
I was hoping that this thread was going to be more along the lines of what the OP wanted to know, (Real Self Defense Situations) rather than who's gunbelt was longer.
Me too egor .

Closed.
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